Episode 433: Paying Off $14K in Debt & Finding Financial Clarity w/ Journeyer Lori-Sara Gauthier

Jamila Souffrant 0:02

Hey. Hey, journeyers, welcome to the journey. To launch podcast today, I have my favorite type of guest in interview, which is someone who is an actual journey or a real life person. I mean, everyone's a real life person, but someone who is actually on the journey, in the thick of it, but making strides. And I love doing these interviews, because I just feel like they're hopefully to you as the audience, as journey is inspirational and can show you that you don't have to have it all figured out to make progress. So today on the podcast, we have Laurie gutier, did I say that? Right? It's fine. Yeah. Good. Okay, let me just say that again. Today on the podcast, we have Lori say your last name again. I'm sorry, Gautier. Gaultier, okay. Today on the podcast, we have Lori Gautier. She is a 30 year old living currently in Toronto, but has roots in Guinea and Senegal in Madagascar, which she'll talk about a bit, and currently is a public servant who has a powerful financial transformation journey. She currently works in public health for the Ontario government. She's recently paid off $14,000 in consumer debt. She's tackling her student loans, and she is here to share more of her journey with us. So thank you so much Lori for coming on the

Lori-Sara Gauthier 1:17

show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

Jamila Souffrant 1:21

Yeah. So first, I guess, tell me how you came across financial independence or got into personal finance, yeah.

Lori-Sara Gauthier 1:31

So I guess backtracking a little bit, I knew that I had a bit of a spending habit slash issue. I think I if I had to root it back in 2019 but it was more like a remark, and I didn't do anything about it. And then I hit a point of air quote, no return in September of 2023 when I realized that I was $14,000 in debt, in credit card debt, and I also had my student debt that I was also paying off, and I had 18,000 left of student debt. And I kind of just had a moment thinking, wow, like my credit card debt is only $4,000 off from what I have left from my student debt, and it just gave me pause. So at that point, I didn't necessarily get into personal finance. It was more like, Okay, I think I need to change my habits. So I definitely reeled it in with the whole shopping situation, eating out, you know, the typical, I think habit changes that people go through when they're trying to reel in their spending, but to be specifically talking about personal finance. So in January of 2024 I was thinking to myself, I'm very bookish. I was like, Well, I read. I'm not really off limits with anything that I read. I had gone through a lot of psychotherapy books. I've been in therapy since about 2021 so I was like, Well, if I can read all these very triggering books, then surely I can read about money, and I knew about clever girl finance, just from the internet. So I was like, okay, you know what? I'm gonna listen to that book. So in Yeah, early 2024 I literally started listening to personal finance audio books. Thank you The Public Library. And when it comes to financial independence. I think Vicki Robin's book was the third book that I read. So I read clever girl finance. I read you need a budget by Jesse and and then Vicki Robin. And at the same time I was also because I listen and read books over in overlap manner, so I just switch. And at the same time, I was also reading, listening to a book called when the world stops shopping, and the the the whole consumer culture, kind of rhetoric in Vicki Robin's book, as well as in that book, when the world stopped shopping was very resonant, because honestly, I've always been concerned about overconsumption. It's just that my behavior didn't reflect that. That concern and then tied with financial independence, I was like, oh, and I have a friend who's an F higher, but he never said, I'm an FYRE. It's just that I was listening to Vicki Robin's book, and I was like, oh, like, that's my friend, Adam. And it's only after the fact that actually his his fiance, is my best friend. And she was like, Yeah, Adam follows, like, the fire movement. And I was like, Yeah, I know. About that movement now. So yeah, that was a long way around, but that's the story.

Jamila Souffrant 5:05

No, that's cool. That's cool. And then somehow you ended up also finding my book, which, yes, thankful that that was part of your journey too.

Lori-Sara Gauthier 5:12

Yes. So your book, I read it in this spring, and what I loved about your book was that I think depending on what spaces on the internet you hang out in, you know, fire is, is a bit sometimes fringe. But what I liked about yours is like, okay, like you can be in the middle, like, it's like, and I think for me, I was like, Okay, I think I'm like, a shy fi like, I'm not,

Jamila Souffrant 5:41

you know what I mean? It's yeah, no, it's not like, all the way, where you want to be super frugal, and yeah, again, there are different levels, you know, yes, not just one broad, broad description anymore, the fire movement, at least from when I first came in. But I totally understand, which is why I want to talk to more people like you. And I created the platform to show, like, a different way of reaching fire and and it's evolving. So thank you for sharing that. I think I want to go back just a little bit just we're going to get into your debt payoff story, because I think there's a lot of good things we can pull out there for people to relate to. But can you talk a little bit about, so you talked about you got into credit card debt. You're, you know, just turned 30, but what your earlier life looked like, because you you definitely have roots in different places, and I'd love to hear how that shaped your ideas around money and spending and all that, even education, because that impacts like right student loans and guessing too.

Lori-Sara Gauthier 6:39

Okay, I'll talk a little bit about my parents, to be clear, we were not poor. We were never poor, but my parents were very celebratory around using credit cards, especially when we were on vacation and and that was them, a significant way that my parents talked about money in my upbringing, but at the same time, sometimes they had arguments about the credit card. So in my mind, like money kind of equaled using credit cards. And it was fraught. It was complex. It meant freedom, but it also meant, like, sometimes argument slash shame. But with that, said i i knew that we were not broke, so to speak. But I guess I'm i My early adulthood led me to be credit card broke, like in credit card debt and broke. So I guess, skipping into my early adulthood, I went to school. I went to the University of Toronto and pursued an undergraduate degree. I took out loans for the degree, and I did not work during school, so I had some pocket money and my credit card, but I also had no money management skills, um, so I would go to shoppers, which is from the Americans, Americans listening. It's the equivalent of CVS, just buy, like a face wash on sale. And because it's on sale, you just feel like you're getting a good deal, that sort of stuff. And that was an emotional response to a sensation of lack in my upbringing. And I know that now that I've done the work in my late 20s. And so when I started making money out of after my undergraduate degree, I made enough money, not enough in the sense that I I felt like it was enough, but on paper, it was enough. So I was also living paycheck to paycheck, and in my mind, I guess at that point, I just hadn't reached the threshold of like, This can't go on, like I have to change. Yeah, but, but yeah. And then I guess also, just to bring up Mike, the context where I grew up, so yes, my parents used credit cards. But in Sub Saharan Africa, Guinea slash Senegal, the average person doesn't necessarily have access to credit. People are like people live their day to day life, still very much with cash. So there was a contrast there. Like, I Yes, of course, my parents had credit cards. But they speak also, because we weren't technically North Americans living in in Guinea or Senegal or whatever that. So, yeah, it was a bit, it's a bit unique when you look at it

Jamila Souffrant 9:38

this way. Yeah. So what age did you leave? You said, So you grew up, I left at 1818. So was the idea that credit cards were useful and helpful, or your family, or your parents thought it was helpful because it wasn't something that they had a lot of people had access to back home or where you grew

Lori-Sara Gauthier 9:56

up? Yeah. I mean, I think. Yeah, I think mostly it was just like they had this, like, cash back credit card, and they were just excited whenever they were using it, because they would claim their cash back, which they did. They got an espresso machine out of that cash back program. But, yeah, so I got my first credit card at 18. I still have it. And the only guidance, really, that I got from my father, was just like, don't use it too much, which can be interpreted in so many ways. So yeah, I I mostly just didn't understand what it was, to be honest, and it's only through trial and error that I can say that now I understand right? For a

Jamila Souffrant 10:39

lot of people, right? You're just like, Okay, here's a credit card. You can what. You have a limit. You can use it well, but you're supposed to pay it off every month so you don't get charged the interest. And so one thing you mentioned was that you felt like when you were buying items, that it was like, directly correlated to like, a sense of lack and I'm wondering if you can talk about that a little bit, just because people feel that, or maybe they don't know that, that's what it is.

Lori-Sara Gauthier 11:05

Yeah, so just a little bit more about my family structure. I was raised by my stepmom, and she her parenting style was relatively it's relative, relatively strict. In my point of view. We were discouraged to ask for anything that was categorized in her standards as extra. So in high school, I'm focusing on face wash, because in high school, she didn't want to buy me face wash. So for me, in my early adulthood, I was like, Oh, my God, I can actually buy myself face wash. And going back to what I was saying earlier in 2019 how I realized that I had a little bit of a pickle is because I counted how many face washes I had in my literally stash in my bedroom. And I had like nine face washes, unused, unopened. And yeah. So I my response to having the freedom of or air quote, the perceived freedom of a credit card was I can buy whatever I want. So I guess you can say that it started with face wash and going to shoppers. But then in my late 20s, three years ago I started running. So I bought, like, a bunch of running shoes, like a bunch of running clothes, so that I can run through through all four seasons, which is great, because now I don't have to buy anything for a while. But also racked up so much consumer debt doing that, and I had to pay for it. I paid in interest for it. Yeah, that's

Jamila Souffrant 12:39

so interesting. You know, when we think about growing up and how that can maybe impact different people in different ways, because we're all set, you know, we're all different, and so we can have someone else can maybe have grown up with that experience, but also do the total opposite, and then not want to like, like, they took that and then use the super discipline, or whatever that was to on themselves and not they're not used to buying things for themselves. So I just think it's super interesting if we are interesting if we all look back in things in our childhood, good or bad or indifferent, and see how that's impacting our decisions now, like if we are overcompensating for something or under using or compensating for something, like what that is. And therapy, it sounds like too, like you said you were going to you've in therapy for a while. That obviously is helpful to help you unpack some of this, because it does impact your money, right? Like, sometimes it's like, we're just thinking about the emotional relationships we have with people, but that is impacting how we show up in the world and how we spend

Lori-Sara Gauthier 13:34

Yeah, so I guess, yes. So that my that that emotion of lack and like, I didn't have this, so I'm gonna revenge by it. Literally, it was rooted in revenge. Was reflected in my money. And ultimately, yeah, sure, I was getting revenge. It's true I can it's true that I can buy what I want. And I think now it's like, okay, I'm through that revenge arc, and ultimately, this type of behavior will only harm me in the long run, because it's truly just really expensive behavior to have,

Jamila Souffrant 14:13

right, right? At some point, it's like, you like, all right, I know I could do this, but yeah, I keep doing this, it's gonna be it's harmful to me. Yeah. So one of the other things I want you to maybe talk about is, so this, this moment of knowing it was enough, right? So you said, like, you know, you knew the credit card bill was kind of increasing, or it was there, it was an issue. But when did you know, or when did it feel like this is an actual problem? I know? Like, what was that changing point for you.

Lori-Sara Gauthier 14:41

Thanks for asking. If you're listening, please feel free to laugh. But in the summer of 2023 I noticed that my behaviors were getting worse. So I was ignoring my credit cards. I was not checking my online banking, which I had never done before, and it was really. Really just avoidance. I knew that I was digging myself into a hole, and I was avoiding it. And also, it's funny hindsight, 2020 but I would also Google like, how do you know that you have a shopping problem? Like, I would Google that, and like, I would read, and I would be like, Oh, my God, am I doing this one of them, when one of them is like you're hiding to shop, or you're hiding your purchases, which it's not that I hid my purchases or hid to shop, but I definitely felt like, when I was browsing online or shopping is that I was doing it, as if I should be hiding this. It's not that I was hiding it, but I felt like I should be, well, I should not be doing it. Basically, I felt like it, it, someone was going to shame me about it. So I had all these complex emotions. And then ultimately, I just had to face the music. I was like, okay, summer's over time to look at my credit card statements and that's that, was it. And I was just like, okay, like, there's an issue here, and maybe you should lean in. And also, I guess, for context, is that in the previous two years, I had actually paid off my credit cards in full, but then racked it back up. So I knew that I had my behavior had led me into this cycle. And in September of 2023 I thought to myself. I said, the if I pay this off and rack it back up, that will be three out of three times that I did the same thing, and I just didn't want to do that. I was like, No, this is like, this is the point of no return. Like, you have, I, I have a lot of, like, internal dialog, but it was more like, you have no choice. You have to get back. You have to get to the bottom of what leads you to this situation now for the third time.

Jamila Souffrant 16:57

Yeah, no, it's great awareness, and that's why I think awareness is like the key first step. So all of us that are avoiding whatever, and this can go in anything in your life, but are avoiding the conversation, avoiding looking. It's that once you are aware, even if you don't do anything, I think most people, though, when they do see it and they are ready to take action, that awareness creates urgency, and then the urgency, like the urgency of the situation, and then the urgency creates, hopefully, action eventually. So the action, I know you said you cut back and, you know, you stopped going out, but was that switch, like, you know, instant like, were able to stop buying, or did like? So some people, they can go cold turkey, they go on a budget, and they stick to it. And some people, it's like, all right, instead of buying $300 worth of this stuff I only, I'll put $100

Lori-Sara Gauthier 17:43

limit to it. Yeah, thanks for asking. So there were two things that summer I racked up consumer debt, going out to eat and shopping for clothes. Big thing. The going out to eat was very easy. It was just like a summer thing. And so end of September came around, and I was like, Okay, you are, you are eating at home. And I had done this before. So it was more kind of like going back to my roots, if you will, shopping for clothes, though, much, much more, much more difficult, because I think my the emotional hurt or the emotional angst that leads me to shopping is definitely about clothes. So that was difficult. I went cold turkey, but I did slip up. I remember it was Black Friday. I was like, I just like, bought, like, running accessories, like mitts and headbands. And I knew while I was doing it that it was completely unnecessary, but it was just, it was a self soothing moment. And then also Boxing Day. End of December, I bought leggings, and now I wear these things. They are in circulation, but now they're like, symbolic. They're like, Okay, this is the symbolic purchase of I was trying to get better, and I slipped up, and it's okay. And then afterwards, it was much more smoother. After Boxing Day, I didn't shop for five, six months, and I felt okay. I'm not saying that it was easy. I still browsed. I like I let myself get the pleasure of browsing, but I was not purchasing, so I was practicing that self control. And practice makes a better practice. I don't even browse online anymore. So,

Jamila Souffrant 19:31

yeah, I've heard that as a strategy to you know that dopamine hit for people who enjoy shopping and like, put it in you like, but you have to practice the discipline, put it in your cart, or put it on your wish list so you get that feeling of looking at it, Ooh, that's nice. Put it in the cart, but then, you know, don't check out just but you can get that hit without going all the way. Or, you know, the other way is to you could put it in your cart, but maybe give some time and space before you make the purchase. Yes, or it's really something you need, especially if you. Doing it like in a time where you know you're not feeling good, maybe you had a difficult day or argument, or it's a coping mechanism that, yes, don't want to make the decision in the time,

Lori-Sara Gauthier 20:10

yeah, yeah, it and just to echo that, it's totally a coping mechanism. Um, it's June, 2025 if you've been checking the news lately, it's rough out there. I feel it this week, this week. I'm like, Oh, I really want to, like, buy something, and I I have to find another way to cope. But yeah, so all this to say it's never truly gone. It's just the volume is definitely turned down compared to two years ago.

Jamila Souffrant 20:48

Have you? Have you found a replacement, not a full replacement, but something that occupies your time for like so when you feel that now, what do you do?

Lori-Sara Gauthier 20:57

I browse, but I don't buy or I browse and I say, Okay, I'll come back next week, or, like, whatever. In the meantime, also, I've started following women's sports, women's basketball, so now my my brain space is occupied by the WNBA subreddit, the ESPN ESPN W on Facebook. So following these storylines, I use a lot of brain space for that. And also, in the meantime, I've also, like, I am three years into running now, so running helps me just get centered, like there are and I think also, like when it comes to shopping, in a consumer society, is everything enables shopping, everything around you. So going out and observing my environment while I run is really remind gives me a lot of perspective. It's like, okay, there are bigger things out there, the birds, the flowers. It's just very grounding, even if I live in a city. But yeah, trying to get my mind off of it, because I do forget about sometimes I see this 1t shirt and I'm like, oh my god, I love this t shirt. There's nothing special about it. It's just truly the emotion. It's just the emotional response. So, like, I really want this and and then I just find something else to think about, and I forget about it. It just passes, yeah, nice.

Jamila Souffrant 22:34

And how long? So you're completely out of that debt, right?

Lori-Sara Gauthier 22:38

Yes, I still have student debt, but I'm out of consumer debt,

Jamila Souffrant 22:42

right? And so are you now. Is your next step just tackle that's tackling the student debt like I know it's probably different. I mean, our student debt, it's, you know, going through some changes now, with some stuff. But for you, is it just you have to pay it off monthly? Is there any work in the government? Is there

Lori-Sara Gauthier 22:59

a forgiveness? So there is forgiveness, but not for public servants. I remember looking into this, so maybe I have to re fact check this, but I don't think there is that forgiveness for public servants. To be clear. While I was paying off my credit card as credit cards, I was paying off my student debt monthly as well. It's just that the pace was just like, not as extreme, if you will. So yes, I have about 14 or 13,000 left on my student card. So now that I freed up some money that was going to credit cards, I've increased my payment amount for my student debt. So my time timeline right now is to be student debt free period in under two years. At this time, TBD, if I will decide to pay more like accelerate that. But for now, I'm it would be very glamor if I just got rid of it in a year just to avoid paying the interest. But there are other priorities, so just trying to find balance.

Jamila Souffrant 24:11

Yeah, yeah. I mean that balance is key. That leads me to my next question of your journey. So now that you're, you know, I feel like, again, it's like personal finance where you're paying off debt and doing the right things and saving to maybe buy a house like those are like to me, normal personal finance moves to make if you're optimizing that. And then the next level that others like side is the financial independence, where you're trying to optimize the system, maybe exit the workforce, invest aggressively. So where are you on that like, what do you want to reach financial independence? What does that journey look like for you?

Lori-Sara Gauthier 24:51

The simple answer would be, yes. The more complex, complex answer would be, I guess, yes, yes now, but maybe in five years. I'll think about it, and maybe it'll be no but yeah, so if you're a public servant in Canada, you have a pension. So I am accumulating, I am building up a pension out of my paycheck and employer contribution stuff like that, something it is invested. It's something that I don't touch. And I've made some calculations right now with my, if I retire at the air quote, normal retirement age, I would be receiving at least six figures until I die, which is solid when it comes to and then there's an option to also retire early on in that paperwork, which is 55 that 55 is the earliest age that you can retire. So this, these are, this is an option. 55 would be nice, but that means that I have to get promoted, I guess, at a higher rate, so that my pension grows more, which is something that I'm considering. I am trying to get promoted this year, so hopefully that happens in next couple months. In terms of other investments, though, the answer is yes, my goal is to invest aggressively, though, right now I am building up like a significant emergency pad, which I guess is a natural progression. You pay off your consumer debt and then you just feed your emergency savings a bit. I mean, more, the answer is yes, but in the short term, I'm also trying to plan like a small wedding, and I'm the type of person who's very focused. It's very hard for me to divide my attention. And it internally, that's hard, and then it's also and it makes it hard for me to reflect that on paper, even though, yes, my transactions are automated and all that stuff, I like to just look at one thing and it's like, okay, this is what I'm trying to achieve under this timeline, so on so forth. But the answer is, it? The answer is, yes, it would be great. But I think it. I think I just need to get to the next step first. So right now, I'm hoping to meet my emergency savings goal at the end of December, and then I will just sit down in January and be like, okay, where, where am I? Where am I allocating that money that was going to the emergency fund to to a TFSA that's tax free savings, or an fhsa, that's first home buying savings account. They currently, these are both invested. They get like pennies, like, I put like, 25 bucks in it, bi weekly. It's very nothing. It's just for the sake of saying, like, Yes, I'm investing, getting into the habit of it. Yeah.

Jamila Souffrant 27:49

I mean, it honestly sounds good, like you're on a great track. I feel like the fact that you were able to kind of on track to pay off your student loan debt and still building up your emergency fund at the same time and planning for a wedding. Like, I think that's a lot like, you know, and you do have a job where, you know, it's almost like, I look at that as, almost like the fallback, like, if nothing else changes, right? Like, my fallback is staying in this job where I have a pension, yes, I mean, it's like, it's a great, it's a great fallback if nothing else happens. But there are so many opportunities for you just because you're doing the work. And yes, the more you do, the more you kind of climb that ladder towards financial independence, the more you have more options to change your mind.

Lori-Sara Gauthier 28:33

Yes, then thank you. This is what I was trying to illustrate, and privilege check. But yes, worst case scenario, I just have my pension. And it's not just because Social Security is, is is about to, is disappearing, but yeah, I would like to have more options. And if I, if I, if I can leave public service and have a second career that is that doesn't have that level of security, or that doesn't have a pension, then I'd be happy to explore that. It's not I haven't given it much thought, though, but the option is there,

Jamila Souffrant 29:11

right? Keep your options open. And that is the beauty of this journey, is that the more you do, the progress you make just unlocks different levels, that before we're not available to you, you wouldn't be comfortable making certain decisions. But I'm pretty sure if we were to speak in a couple years, your mind, and again, you're going to evolve in what you want in life, and you can change your mind. And so all that can change. It's just doing the having the foundation, though, gives you such a great platform to launch from, or

Lori-Sara Gauthier 29:38

even, like, having the option to go on sabbatical, like, I'm not necessarily retiring early, but I can afford to just take a knee, take a year, run an ultra marathon, I don't know, do an extravagant hiking trip, something like that. And I think that is what, like, my reward pathway in my brain changed a lot, paying. Off debt, because now I'm seeing that money that was going to high interest debt as an opportunity. I'm like, Okay, well, technically, this money can do things that I hadn't actually considered because I was literally stuck in high interest debt, and I had to pay it off faster than it was racking interest. But that's, that's the biggest shift. I thought that money was complicated. It was niche. I didn't understand anything. I was air quote, bad at it. You see that a lot in personal finance, but no one's really bad at money, you can learn how to understand the rules of the game. And if you apply yourself, if you have the time to do that, then I think everyone can learn, and everyone can understand fi and consider it and look and look at their money with with a lens of what options does? Does my money Give me? Because that's it's really what it is, right,

Jamila Souffrant 31:11

right? And I think for so many people, it's like that fear, the overwhelm, the feeling like they're not capable, not having like that growth mindset and confidence in yourself is such a big deal, which is why a lot of its mindset, its mindset, it like starts from internally. It's not to say you can't feel fair, you can't feel shame. I think we all have it. I still have it. It is just the that idea that, you know, I can figure this out, or I'll be okay if I, you know, trust and just trust in the process and trust in myself. So I hope that is encouraging to other journeyers listening and the the one thing or the other thing I want to ask you about before we sign off is just are. Do you have any advice or tips for someone listening right now about your journey?

Lori-Sara Gauthier 31:55

Yes, I think if I had to talk to myself back then, when I was avoiding me avoiding my consumer debt was rooted in shame. I was like, why am I in this situation again? And of course, now that I, by the way, I threw a party for paying off my credit card then, and I invited all my girlfriends, and it was really fun. But yeah, for people listening who are early on in their journey, even if you're not in consumer debt, but if you are, debt doesn't have a moral value. If you have debt, it's it's one part of your story that you can keep writing in whatever direction that you want to keep writing it in. There's no good debt or bad debt. In my opinion, it's all debt is predatory, and it's mostly like, how do you utilize it to achieve what you want, or if you want to get rid of it, then it's mostly like, how do you chip at it little, little by little. And then for other people listening, who may not be in debt, but feel like you don't really know where to start, I always say everything is a running allegory. To start, you just have to start. You put on your shoes, you go outside, you run for a minute, take a walking break, and then you run again, and you take a walking break, and it might be messy. You might start today, and then you read one chapter, or you open, like, Investopedia, or you open wealth, simple, if you're Canadian, and you close it and you don't look at it for like, 30 days, 60 days, but you still have that now, and you can build on that. And I think small actions make a like they add up, and it's true. And this is also a running allegory, if you're training for a marathon, if you're training for a half marathon, what this amounts to is all the little training runs that you put together until race day. And it's cliche, but it's cliche, maybe because it's true. It's all those little, all these little decisions that make, make these big changes in your life and take pride, talk about it. I think women, young women, there's so much taboo. I asked my fiance, like, how did you learn about to invest? Like, literally, through thin air. And he's like, I was just asking my friends. And it's just cis men. They just talk about this stuff. My little brother, he's 18. He's like, Oh yeah, he's turning 18 in July. He's like, I can't wait to turn 18 so I can start day trading. I'm like, what this is such a guy thing to say, women don't say that. And I just wish it would change. I think it's changing the amount of personal finance. All the personal finance books that I read are written by women. I think Jesse's book is the only exception. Shout out, Jesse. Zero based budget, and I will be reading JL Collins book. It's on hold right now at the library, but, yeah, that was a mouthful, but I think that's what

Jamila Souffrant 35:10

mind no. I mean, those are all. I hope everyone was taking notes that was actually really great tips and insight. And I love the running comparisons, because I also am a runner. So I think, oh, yeah, I've been I ran my second. I ran two half marathons so far. It's funny, because each time I run it, I'm like, never doing that again. But, you know, I feel like I do get a joy. I I do. You can go back into other episodes where I first started running, it was like, Oh, I can't stand this. But I do enjoy, you know, the confidence that I get from it. And just like you said, I find that the the pushing yourself and doesn't have to be running if you're not a runner, just anything, you're, you're you're taking on that's different, that's new or challenging to you. It feels bigger when you're first doing it, but as you start doing it, you'll start to see, like, wow, this is something I can do, and the confidence will help push you

Lori-Sara Gauthier 36:04

through so you got it, yes, totally agree. It's like baking. Also bake. And I think back the first time I made a cookie, it's like the simplest thing, but now I see like a more complex cake. And I was like, Oh yeah, I can totally do that. But it really is rooted in all the practice and all the just like, Okay, let me try to improve a little bit, small improvements, small improvements, and then it builds up. Yeah,

Jamila Souffrant 36:27

it's less. Lori, thank you so much for coming on the show and being open sharing your experience. Thank you for being a journeyer. And I really, I know that this episode will help a lot of people, and we need to do like, an update, and then maybe a year or a couple years on your journey, and I would love that. But thanks again.

Lori-Sara Gauthier 36:45

Thank you so much, Jamila, I really appreciate it, and thanks for listening. Everyone you.

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