Episode 470: Why Doing Nothing Is the Most Expensive Decision You’ll Ever Make with Amanda Holden

Amanda Holden 0:02

Here's the thing, you can't opt out of capitalism, right? That there is no way to do that, and even just like in terms of thinking about working versus investing, right? Like somebody might not want to invest, because what they don't want is their money to prop up a system that they hate, right? But if you don't do it with your money, you will do it with your time.

Speaker 1 0:26

Welcome to the journey to launch podcast with your host Jamila Souffrant as a money expert who walks her talk. She helps brave journeyers like you get out of debt, save, invest and build real wealth. Join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom in 54321,

Jamila Souffrant 0:53

if you want the episode show notes for this episode, go to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening to this episode in the show notes, you'll get the transcribed version of the conversation, the links that we mentioned, and so much more also, whether you are an OG journeyer or brand new to the podcast, I've created a free jumpstart guide to help you on your financial freedom journey. It includes the top episodes to listen to, stages to go through, to reach financial freedom, resources and so much more. You can go to journey to launch.com/jumpstart to get your guide right now. Okay, let's hop into the episode. Hey, journeyers, welcome to the journey to launch Podcast. Today I have Amanda Holden, who I'm so excited to chat with and catch up with, because Amanda has been on podcast before. But let me just before I say what episode, let's just get into Amanda's bio. Amanda Holden is the founder of invested development, before becoming a leading voice on women and money. She earned degrees in economics and communications from UCLA and worked at an investment management firm. She just released a book called How to be a old rich lady, which was an automatic USA Today best seller. She's known online as dumpster doggy, and she shares her activism work and talks just a lot about like which I love, about what Amanda brings to space, personal finance in a personal way, in a way that I think resonates with so many people. Amanda, welcome back to the show. Amanda was on episode 280 back in 2022 so it's been four years, Amanda, since you've been on, and I just want to welcome you back. I can't

Amanda Holden 2:40

wait to catch up. It's the best to be back. Thank you so much for having me.

Jamila Souffrant 2:44

Yeah, So Amanda, your title of episode 280 back in 2022 was called Saving $30,000 to quit corporate America and pivot to teaching women how to invest which in that episode, which I'll link in the show notes for this one, you can, like, really hear a deep dive of Amanda's origin story, but I do want to just, like, touch upon it, because I do have new listeners and people who have forgotten that. And so let's, like, just talk about kind of where you came from, and then we're going to catch up on where you've been up to.

Amanda Holden 3:12

Now, I love it, the villain origin story. Um, like, how did you get so radicalized. Well, let me tell you. I started out working in investment management right out of school, and the year was the year of our Lord 2008 which for anybody that maybe was not working during this time, this is the year of the great financial crisis and then the stock market crash. And so it was a wild time to be working directly in the stock market. And so I was working as an associate for a couple of years, but in the aftermath of the crash, they actually poached me to to go and be in a client facing position. So I'm like a 2425 year old woman in just a sea of men. You know, everybody I'm working with is, is men. I'm also working directly with our high net worth clients, and my job at that time is to answer questions about the markets, keep our clients apprised of portfolio strategy. And so basically, what I was doing was I was like, letting old rich guys scream at me about their money all day. Because people were to be fair. People were really, really scared. This was a very, very scary time, and so my job was to get these guys to hold on through this really difficult time in the market. And so it was a really great job in that I learned a lot, but it also was quite the spiritual mismatch for me. You know, I did what I thought I was supposed to do after leaving college with a degree in economics, and I'm working in finance, but I'm looking around being like, this is just not for me. This is This doesn't feel right. And so I actually made a January 1 resolution to save every single dollar that came across my desk. And so I. Did. And, you know, this was in, was it 2013 2014 around that time that I, you know, I saved up to $30,000 and this is in addition to what's in my 401, k, and this is just basically my you money. And so I ended up walking away from my job in in finance, and I peeled out of that parking lot one last time, thinking I would never look back, and I would never come back to finance. But this, just this idea kept gnawing away at the back of my brain, which was, you've been helping all of your girlfriends navigate this stuff, every single person via their 401, K or 403, B, or Roth IRA or whatever it is, every single person now has to learn this skill of investing. Every single person has to at least know the basics in order to be not even just financially independent, but even just financially secure. And so there's this endless need to teach people about this thing that I not just like learned about but I learned deeply. And so I ended up deciding, okay, maybe my work in this space isn't done. And so I doubled back and started my business teaching not just women to invest, but really anybody who's felt left out of the conversation about investing and building wealth. And so that's a business that I've been running for almost the last decade. And then, yeah, this the most recent edition, is my beautiful book called How to be a ritual lady, yes,

Jamila Souffrant 6:30

which, by the way, I've always loved how you name your whether it's your workshop, your your blog, your Instagram handle. It's just very catchy. And I'm like, That is such a smart way to grab people's attention and have, like, an interesting hook. Because I think a lot of us, being in this space for so long, talk about similar things. Of course, we have different things we are we are expertise in, and I think you just do a really good job of making investing, which is something so many people struggle with or feel intimidated by. They feel comfortable. They feel like when Amanda explains it and walks through things like it's something attainable for them to start doing and to have.

Amanda Holden 7:12

I appreciate that, and that's that's really been my focus for for years. And I think that part of my superpower as a teacher is that I I don't like naturally enjoy finance, but I understand the importance of understanding finance as a tool to live your best life. And so I come from it as a teacher. I come from it from the perspective of like, okay, like, I don't expect you to say the sentence, like, I love my Roth IRA, like, I don't expect you to to enjoy this. And I really consider myself to be a teacher for like, the weirdos and the artists and the lovers and the mothers and so I'm out here trying to just find a new way to talk about these topics that can so often feel so so gatekept,

Jamila Souffrant 8:00

yes, yes. Okay, so the last time we spoke was about four years ago. You've done a lot, experienced a lot since then, and so talk to me about what you've been up to during that time. I know you know you're running your business, but how did you lead up to now writing this book about investing, which we'll get into, sure.

Amanda Holden 8:19

So the the original conception of this business was actually writing a book. And so I left finance, I left and I went traveling. I was I was I used that money to go travel for a year in Central and South America, which was an incredible experience. And that's, that's when I doubled back on my promise never to engage with finance ever again, and I started writing a book. So this is, like, 10 years ago. I started writing a book, and ultimately I ended up tabling it, because I went to a book publishing seminar, and they were like, if you want to publish a nonfiction book, you have to be first bullet point famous. And I was like, oh, and it makes sense to a degree, with a nonfiction book, it's a business, right? Book publishing is a business, and part of what they want to see is your ability to sell your own book, and they also want to believe that you have a platform to speak about what you claim to have expertise on. And so it made perfect sense to me, and so that's when I said, Okay, I'm going to abandon the book. And instead, what I'm going to do is I'm going to start this business. And my business is really focused on live teaching, workshops, courses, being in either rooms or Online Rooms with people, because for whatever reason, that has just seemed to work best for people, right? Like, there's something about, like, showing up for an hour with the teacher that that I don't it's hard to sit down and read a blog post about investing, you know what I mean. And so whether it's through, through, like, kind of the podcast format or workshop format, it just seems to really work for people. And so, you know, even though what I really wanted was to be a writer, I. I let go of my own ego and followed what seemed to be working for people, and really kind of let go of the desire to write a book at all. And you know, then, then ultimately, what happened is a couple of women who work at one of the major imprints at one of the major publishers happened to be students in my course, and then they came to me and they said, Hey, we think you got to write a book. And so it was like a very full circle moment, but it just took 10 years to materialize.

Jamila Souffrant 10:30

Yeah, okay. I just, I really love, I love, love, love that story, because, for a few reasons, because I know I have people interested. They have a concept. They have an idea in nonfiction, maybe fiction, but let's stick with nonfiction, and they and you can do it on your own self. Publish. You know, there's resources for that, but I do think, as you said, as a publishing companies want you to have you have to, like, have an audience to sell to. Like, what makes you the authority? And I love how 10 years ago, like, you would have wanted it to happen at that moment, but you had to build the platform. But not only that, you had to go through the steps of teaching it live to know how could, you could translate that into a book where people could follow, and I think that's where people want to, like, Skip, like, they just want to go to the goal and finish the thing. But there, there are some steps you have to take. But it doesn't mean that the journey is, like, completely miserable in the meantime, like you can, you can still learn and make money and and do other things, and then you might end up in an even better situation and even just more organic, because people are coming to you saying, Hey, I love your work. Can you write a book? Which is kind of like for me, how I got my book deal, well, how it started the process was someone who listened to my podcast, reached out and worked for a publishing house, and said, Hey, would you be interested in that? That made me say, Wait a second, let me take this more seriously and start the proposal. And that's who I ended up going with. Ultimately, after my after my auction, the book went to auction. So I just think that it feels like such a long journey, and it feels like you shouldn't start if, if the goal posts are so far away, but in the meantime, there's so much to be learned and attained, like, like, what you've been doing,

Amanda Holden 12:06

yeah, I, I wouldn't trade this trajectory for anything, for so many reasons. I'm also just so much smarter than I was 10 years ago. And then it also just, you know, having so much interaction with my you know, you can call it my potential reader, but to me, they're my students. And so, you know, I've answered now, over the last 10 years, 1000s and 1000s of questions, so I actually know what are the stumbling blocks people are having a hard time getting over when learning this topic. And so, in fact, even with the book, I have structured it in such a way to directly pull from my experiences as a teacher. And so it's, you know, instead of being like eight big chapters, like, what I what I didn't want to do was like, force anybody to have to read like a 40 page chapter on mutual funds. And so the chapters are very short. It's 41 very short chapters, and each one is built around a central question about either building financial security or financial independence or investing. And I think that this works for a lot of reasons, like I am approaching these topics kind of like framed around A commonly asked question. And then also short chapters are just nice because, like, you can get 10 pages done and have that be your win for the week. Yes.

Jamila Souffrant 13:27

Okay, so let's hop into some specific just investing topics and teaching, and then we'll go a bit more into what you're up to now. With that being said, what is one of the like, questions that you had to put in the book or something you you get asked so much that you know someone's listening to right now who's a beginning an investor, or hasn't started yet, or just has investments but just doesn't even understand them. And those could be multiple questions, but what comes up the most that you're like, All right, let's just, let's just answer this right now or help people get started. Sure.

Amanda Holden 13:57

So unfortunately, the question I do get the most is the Roth versus traditional question, and and so that is the commonly most asked question, and we can certainly talk about it. But what I would also encourage my students to do, or my readers to do, is to understand that that is not the difference maker, and it is one of the first decisions we have to make when we're investing first, we have to pick an account, which really means we have to pick a type of taxation. That's what we're talking about. But at the end of the day, it is the investments inside the account that are so much more important, and so sometimes, even within the context of my course, we'll be doing questions, and every single question for three hours is about the rules around retirement accounts. And I will have to stop us and say, Hey, this let's, let's, let's pause. This is important, but what is more important is that we make sure that we're comfortable with what is going on inside of the account.

Jamila Souffrant 14:56

Okay, can you give an example of that? So what does that mean? Like, if someone what is the question that is being asked, and how would you answer that specifically? Sure.

Amanda Holden 15:04

So the question is, Hey, should I use my 401 k at work, or should I use a Roth IRA? Because I've heard a Roth IRA is better, right? A Roth IRA is actually better from a taxation standpoint. And so we can get in to the pros and cons of each right? But at the end of the day, this is a question about the difference of taxation between a 401 K and a Roth IRA, and the difference is, when do you pay income taxes? What do income taxes have to do with this? Well, most of us are investing money that we earned through work, and so what a traditional 401 K allows us to do is kick the can down the road and pay those income taxes later, presumably, and this is key when we have a lower overall or effective tax rate as a retired person. And so this would be maybe especially true if you're somebody that's a higher earner and pays a higher effective rate of tax a Roth IRA, you aren't avoiding income taxes in the year you contribute, which is just a fancy word for save too, right? So you're not avoiding taxes, but you won't have to pay them later either. And so a lot of folks look at a Roth and they say, You know what? Okay, maybe I will have to pay a slightly higher rate of tax now, but I don't care. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna get them out of the way and treat that as a gift I give to my future self, who will never have to pay taxes on this money again. And so here's the thing, you can actually make a really good argument for either, especially considering we are all making this decision with an unknown variable, which is what tax rates will be in the future, so nobody knows, like what exactly is going to be best. And so my final answer to this question would be a 401, K, even if it's not ideal to you, from a tax standpoint, is great for a lot of reasons, right? You may have a match which you definitely need to get your match. Everything is automated, which in and of itself is a benefit. We like having money coming out of every single paycheck and automatically invested inside of that 401, K, but if you feel like you have extra energy, yes, I also think a Roth IRA is great, and then that way you have some tax diversification. So we love both. And then I'll say, next, let's talk about how the money is being invested inside,

Jamila Souffrant 17:26

yes, yes. And I'm so these all great, because what I find I get these questions too, and I don't, I don't say that I specialize, like, in investing. So you know, when people pick up my book, I'm like, it's not going to give you specific investing advice. Like, I would say, Go get Amanda's book. You could, like, start my book and read my book to help you plan how to get to financial independence. But then if you really want to learn specifics, like, Amanda's book is a better choice for specific investing definitions, ideas like terms, I cover some of that, but not in the way you do. And so I just think it's important, because so many people get caught up, I think on the exact right thing to do, without even understanding or knowing all the variables that sometimes we will we won't know, because it takes, like, a future you to know what that is. But just getting started, like, even if you just start investing in a 401, k like that, you currently have available to you, if you have one, it's just to do it. And as you start, then you can get better data, and you'll be in situations where you'll know how to ask questions that apply to you, versus, oh, I'm not going to do anything because I don't know what's right, and I'll just, like, sit and do nothing.

Amanda Holden 18:31

It's too hard to conceptualize without actually getting in there and seeing it and doing it and yeah, you nailed it. The most important if we're talking about important variables, the most important variable is how much money you invest. It's always going to be how much you do, how early you get started. And so, like, let that be your rally and cry to get started as soon as possible if you're not getting started. And you know, unfortunately, what I see is that this conversation of like, which retirement account should I choose? I mean, it ends up stopping people from getting started, which is so unfortunate. So like the, like the figure out what is a 401? K versus Roth IRA. Like on my to do, don't let that carry over on your next 100 to do list this year. Just like, pick one and get get start, make sure you qualify. And I have, in my book, I have extensive information about, like, what you would qualify for in your particular situation. But then, just like, don't make haste and and get to go in.

Jamila Souffrant 19:35

Hey, journeyers, if you are loving this podcast, then you will love my book, Your journey to financial freedom, a step by step guide to achieving wealth and happiness. I wrote this book for you. This book is for you if you want a clear and enjoyable path to having more money options and a rich life. This book is for you if you hate your commute and the fact that you need to seek approval or permission. Question from a boss, I hated that when I worked, this book is for you. If you weren't born into wealth, you didn't marry rich or win the lottery, but you still want freedom. This book is for you. If you're at a crossroads, a major decision or event is imminent, maybe a career change, marriage, starting a family, pressures are reaching a tipping point, and the discomfort and the desire for more can no longer be ignored, and this book is for you. If you find yourself zoned out at meetings, looking out the window or daydreaming about the life you truly want, so go pick up your journey to financial freedom.com. So I can show you how to map out how to get from where you are today to where you ultimately want to be and enjoy the journey. While you're on the path, head over to your journey to financial freedom.com. To see where you can pick the book up. It's available on Amazon, bookshop.org, Barnes and Noble, your local bookstore everywhere. Go to your journey to financial freedom.com. To get the book. Now, here's another thing I know that comes up often, is investing while in debt. And if you should, like, I have my thoughts, but I want to hear from you. Like, what advice do you tell people? And I know, again, think everyone has a specific, specific situation, right? So this is we're generalizing here, but what is your kind of rule of thumb? If you have one around investing while in debt?

Amanda Holden 21:25

Sure. So it all depends on on the kind of debt, and then also how it makes you feel. And so if you are somebody that has, you know, high interest debt, so credit cards where you're paying a 22% rate of interest, which you could never invest in a way to out earn what you're you're essentially bleeding out in credit card debt, in interest specifically. And so that's kind of like a no brainer, right? Like the 22% let that you're losing on average per year, versus, let's say maybe, like, the six or seven or 8% you could earn investing. And so if we're comparing interest rates high interest debt, it's a great place to focus as your next step. I would say that that is also true if you have debt that is really emotionally damaging to you, like if it's really, really weighing on you, even if, let's say it has a 10% rate of interest, like you would have my permission to work on it. In my opinion, we just got to, like, pick something and work towards it, knowing that most of us, with the way that this world works, we can't do everything every year just making sure we're working towards something. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, let's say that you've got debt, maybe you've got federal student loans, or you've got, you know, a mortgage, and it's just, it's an it's another bill to you. Well, then in that scenario, I would definitely not let having that debt stop me from building my own thing. And so, you know, it's okay, Sallie Mae is going to do what Sallie Mae is going to do, but, like, I'm going to also be over here building wealth for myself and for my

Jamila Souffrant 23:00

family, yeah, that's, that's, that's good advice. And as we're thinking now, right about coming into and taking some like, power, right? I think the thing about investing, which feels intimidating to people, if they have not started, or did it come from a family who could teach them, which is most of us about this stuff, and they're like, in the real world now learning about it, and maybe feeling like they're starting too late. Is that like people, especially now, I feel like, want to take back their power. I in general, even just the concept of the fire movement, financial independence, retire early. I think things have shifted a little bit. But I know when I first started and got into it, it was like, Okay, I don't want to work for this corporation for the rest of my life. I want to take my time back, but I need money to do that. And so investing, I mean, is the way, even if you are not fully invested, to where you're completely able to retire early, but having a nest egg, that blanket, that security blanket. Even you know that people will feel, I feel like does feel like a far off goal. If they feel like they're starting late or they just don't like the world is like going to hell. So, like, what's the point? So what's the encouragement for people to start getting on the path when they don't think they have enough time, or they can never reach the goal that they're looking

Amanda Holden 24:22

for sure, so much of what you just said, like, what really springs to mind is that, like, we avoid taking action because the fear is that, like, you know, for example, with the world, the world being as crazy it is, so we don't do anything because we're afraid that, like ultimately, we will have nothing right. And the truth is the only way to guarantee that you will have nothing to you will materialize that fear by doing nothing. And so I am the type of teacher where I'm pro I'm probably made. Be, hmm, like I I do agree that some sort of like total systems collapse is within the realm of possibility. I don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility, even then I still invest for my future as almost kind of a hedge, right? Like I am assuming that it's not a total foregone conclusion, and so I am going to want some sort of resources into the future, right? Having more resources and more options is just always going to be better than having less resources and less options. And that doesn't mean you have to do it this particular way, but I do think it means that you should do something, do whatever, but do what makes sense for you as you build into your future. The future may get harder, right? It may get harder, but we kind of understand what it will look like, right? Like, you know we are seeing, for example, more widespread climate disaster, and you know what every person needs in for example, like, I'm from the West Coast, and so I now know many people who have lost their homes in wildfires. And you know what those people need? They need money. They need resources to get back on their feet. And so, yeah, just like prioritizing your not just your future self, but your now self. I mean, it's a true gift, an act of self care, in my opinion. And you know, part of what I tell my students as well is like, yeah, maybe you're investing money for what feels like this really tenuous long term, but you are also then giving yourself the psychological relief of knowing that you're doing something,

Jamila Souffrant 26:41

yeah, and then, and what about feeling, because I know a lot of your work now, and what you're going towards is, like, a lot of activism and thinking about community. So in that regard, if you are someone who is like, I don't like the system of the capitalistic society system, why do I have to participate? And you did say a lot of things. I think that we helpful. But like, what about thinking it in that way? Like, how do you is there a way to be socially conscious as you invest because it's like, okay, don't shop at Amazon. But, like, a lot of people shop at Amazon. Like, there's all these, like, corporations, like, are, to me, all are in the same boat. So even if it's on Amazon, like the next place that's not locally owned is most likely like that, or run by someone like that. So how do you participate in the society? And if you're really on that path to wanting to be more conscious and do it in a way that feels good, is there a way for it to feel good? Or you just have to accept that you're part of the system and you're just like another cog in the wheel that keeps it spinning.

Amanda Holden 27:46

Well, it's a little bit of both. I think, I think both things are true. Yeah, here's the thing, you can't opt out of capitalism, right? That there is no way to do that. And even just like in terms of thinking about working versus investing, right? Like somebody might not want to invest, because what they don't want is their money to prop up a system that they hate, right? But if you don't do it with your money, you will do it with your time. And so it's one or the other, right? And so at least then with the investing, you get to reclaim some of your own personal time, which is something that I want for the journey years. That's something that I that I want for people who have historically not been able to build wealth ever, right? It feels, you know, it does feel, on some level, kind of crazy to lecture people who have never been allowed to build wealth, to not use these tools that are now available to them, that have been available to I mean, we can just say it white men since, you know, the dawn of time, and so, you know, I always want people to, to be, to feel okay, taking care of themselves, because there is no, there is no opting out of this system, right? Like, even if you move to the forest, the government owns the forest, babe. So there's there's that that said I am somebody that is very invested in moving us toward a better world and trying to find the ways that I can be most effective in something that you brought up specifically was like a boycott of a major corporation. And I just, like in my life, try to shop as local as possible, not just so these big corporations that, you know, I don't even want to see where their political donations are going. I'm not giving them my money, but I'm also proactively, then investing in the community I want to live in. So, you know, this is something that it's so interesting to me that so many personal finance but also even like wellness influencer, influencers are never talking about the actual conditions of the community and also the world that we want to live in. And so I see that as as an investment in not just a. People who are around me, but then also myself, and so I just even just love kind of, you know, reframing it as like. I'm not trying to like, you know, I'm not even just trying to punish Amazon so much as I am trying to build the world that I that I want to live in. I also do think that just, you know, from from my experience working in divestment movements is that, in general, any sort of social change is going to come from collective action. And so something that we can all do is really focus on where are their pressure targets? And so, for example, target was a big pressure target after they removed some of their dei initiatives, right? And it did hurt that it worked, and it was all of us coming together and using our power collectively to send a message, because it's really about the message that we're able to to send when we work together, and that means withholding our money, because that is the language they

Jamila Souffrant 30:59

speak, yeah, and and feeling like, you know, oh, it's just one, it's just me, and I'm not going to make a big difference, and this is going to save me time and maybe money. So why don't I just do this? And I know that me that's just a reality for, like, a lot of people, where also the luxury of having because I do think it takes more, a little bit more energy and a process to not go the fast, cheaper, easier route. So I do think it's a bit of a luxury to be able to do that. And so some people, if they're working, or, you know, parents who are busy, I'm not saying it's impossible, but a lot of times it does feel like people like a pushback, even that I would have that can be solved, right with just taking my time or do things. It's like, it's the time and energy that I don't have because of, like, what I'm doing. But I also know that it's possible. And so what are some ways in which someone who is still shopping at these places, like, what are you are you saying, like, you don't completely stop? Or is there a way in which you can encourage or help people scale back and divest from some of these companies. Sure.

Amanda Holden 32:06

I mean, nothing ever has to be all or nothing, and in fact, that never seems to be like the path that people can stick to right? And so it's just about trying to do a little bit better right. Like maybe you know, one of your Starbucks runs per week you're getting from a local coffee person. You know, you cut your meat consumption in half. You know, there's just so many different ways to reduce the flow of money that is ultimately ending up in the hands of billionaires who are then using that money to manipulate our political system. And I also agree that, like not everybody, can do everything. That's never the message that I'm trying to give. But I do think that there are a lot of folks who, you know, especially those of us, who maybe have more financial stability and have more ability to make these decisions. We do need to be talking about the ways in which we can use our relative luck or privilege or financial stability to try to make the world a little bit better for folks that maybe can't make those decisions right now, right?

Jamila Souffrant 33:10

One of the things that I know you talk about in your book, and you mentioned at the top of the episode, was, like investing in community and like, let's talk a little bit about that. Now, I know like there is the actual investing, like buying in your local mom and pop stores. And it's funny, because just like, when the government, like, or the big corporations were buying, like, the single family homes, and you know, there some legislation, I guess I'm trying to stop that, but like, you would think, Oh, I'm like, I'm working with a small homeowner on this project. And so that feels better when it's like, Nope, it's not. And so even with the small store, it's like, yes, most likely they're owned by a, you know, local person. But sometimes those are not even owned by small local people anymore. It's like, it's like seeping in, like this big economy Corporation seeping into even the little things or the community structures that we own. So how can we invest in our community? How can we learn more about who is in our community? We both live in New York, right? And so sometimes that can feel like big and maybe not, as all the neighbors know each other. I mean, I know my neighbors, but it can feel like that depending on the city you live in or where you live. So let's just talk about building community and

Amanda Holden 34:24

investing in community. Sure, yeah, private equity owns everything, right? Private Equity owns the sidewalk at this point. And so here's how I would think about it. I would even start by thinking about it as investing in people. Right? Invest in the people who you interact with every day. I'll give you an example. So I, I am in New York City. I do not have an in washer, in Unit, washer and dryer, sad for me, but I do have quite the relationship with my laundromat guy. And the other day, I. I mean, I live in a small apartment, I don't have a ladder, and so I asked him, I was like, my curtain rod came down, and it's been down for like, five months, and I just cannot get my hands on a ladder. And this man not only gave me his ladder, but he came over and helped me put up my curtain rod. And so because I have this relationship with him, I did not need to get a Task Rabbit. And this is such like it's such a simple example, but I bring it up because capitalism is nothing if not putting paywalls around everything that we used to provide for ourselves for free within a community structure, right? Whether that's cooking meals or sharing childcare or something like that. It's like some some some handyman work, and so just something that's really great is just investing in the people who are geographically close to you and building relationships with them. And who knows, maybe you never get anything in return, but that is okay too, because you get something by giving as well.

Jamila Souffrant 36:02

Yeah, I love that example. And you know, what that takes is talking. It takes communication, getting to know your neighbor. Like saying, being the first to say hi. I'd like, especially as being a parent. So you know, you meet a lot of other parents. And what I found is I've learned so much and found out about so many opportunities, and I hope I do the same for other parents, because just by talking, that's one of the things my mom always like taught me, is you always want to communicate and talk to other, especially other parents and people, because you just never know, not necessarily, for what you can get from them, but you just never know when they can help you, or you can help them, or Just to know someone, that community is so important.

Amanda Holden 36:42

It's, it's so important, and it's also just kind of, like the whole point, like, what are we like, not going to be like, ladies about town? Like, that's, that's the whole thing. Of course, I want to be notorious on my block. I love that.

Jamila Souffrant 36:57

Now, as you're thinking about your work now, so you wrote the book. You finally wrote the book. The book is out, and we're going to tell everyone where they can get it right. It's available everywhere, yep. So what? What are you up to now? What is next? Do you find that now, because you just wrote the book, you have to do, like, a lot of things around the book, because you got to capitalize on the topic. And so are you kind of focusing on that as you are thinking about other things, or what do you feel like is your next step, or career move, or just life move?

Amanda Holden 37:27

Yeah. Gosh, great question. Yeah. So I'm six weeks out from publication, and so I am just kind of coming out of the fog of book publication, the behind the scenes administration, the amount of admin of book launch challenged my very feeble admin capacities, and so I'm kind of trying to figure out what's next. But for me, and this is a shift that's been happening for some time, I will continue to do the work that I'm doing where I'm providing investing education. For example, I have an ethical investing workshop that's coming up. I've, you know, recently done workshops on the AI bubble, and so I will continue to provide these, like, free and affordable resources for people to learn investing it's it's core to who I am and and to what I do. And then, of course, I will be continuing to promote the book. Although, you know, book promotion is, is interesting, like, there's a lot of excitement right around launch, and then it seems to Peter off. And so it's up to me and me alone to keep that excitement alive. And so I will be doing that. And then I've also shifted a lot of my energy to the different activism work that that I do, and some of that I do share on social media and with my students as well, because it's just been a part of my journey. Gosh, if I had to summarize it, it's, you know, I what I would say is that, like, the more I've learned about money and power and capitalism and systems is the more I have seen how it is really designed for certain people to fail. And so it feels like, gosh, if you're equipped with all this information, like it perhaps is an incumbent on you to try to do something about it. And this is something that I will just be like, I will admit so forthcomingly that is afforded to me by some of the financial independence that I've been working toward myself. And that's almost how I view financial independence. I think we think of it as like reaching a certain number on a spreadsheet, and then you can walk away from work forever and well, first of all, that's probably just not going to be the reality for most people. Most people are going to hit a point where they really, for whatever reason, either need to leave work or want to leave work, but they may not be able to do so without having any sort of income coming in, and so they may need to adjust the type of work that they do. And so for me, what I see financial independence are creeping ever closer to that number as being able to adjust the type of work that I do. And perhaps. Perhaps even taking on lower paid work that I am really passionate about. And so for me, that might be, you know, work in the labor, labor movement space. I've also been doing a lot of work with anti ice and then the Palestinian Liberation Movement. So yeah, I'll probably continue to do that.

Jamila Souffrant 40:18

And this is what you know, like you said, it's financial independence is not just like a hard stop or a number, and which is why I believe freedom can be attained as you go along, even if you never reach complete financial independence. It's this power to choose what you want to do. And I think honestly, that is what we all just want in life, is the choice and options and autonomy to do what we want and and so many people are not able to do that. And you said that before, like, if you're not going to you're trading, you know, either you're going to be working and not participating and not not taking the wheel to to control your destiny, or you're going to, like, take active steps, even though they may feel hard, and they are hard for especially for some people, more than others. But then there's action that needs to be taken, because the results that you get, even without completely reaching financial independence, are massive. I just had on so this episode will probably air right after the week of a actually high school friend who was also, you know, she she created her own business and seemed to be making great financial moves, but ultimately her she had to take her from her mom, and her mom had cancer, and had they her house blew up. And so there's all these things where that happened to her, and she wouldn't have been able to do, to take step away, or to have flexibility without starting the business, and she wouldn't have been able to start the business without betting on herself and investing in education to learn these things. So all that to say is what I see you doing now, Amanda, is like working on things that you really care about that will impact the world and influence others to do the same, but also encouraging people that like this is what true freedom looks like, is this ability to choose, and that's why the work like, no matter how old you feel or late you feel that you're starting you should do because I do believe that can be unlocked for you sooner than you know, I

Amanda Holden 42:15

completely agree. It's 10 years from now, you're going to be so happy you started now with whatever you could, in any way you could, even if it's not investing right, even just making the decision to get down and dirty with your finances this year, like even just making that shift and making that decision, you're just going to be so so happy. I was at a book club with some some women, and they were talking about how one of them had bought Amazon stock early, and because of it, she was her and her husband were able to use that money for a down payment for a house. And every single person which, like, lucky you okay, and there was some luck involved right in the big single stock purchase, but all of the other women were lamenting, like, oh, like, I wish that had been me, and yet none of those women were investing right now. And so it can never be you if we don't start and if we don't try now,

Jamila Souffrant 43:11

that's so powerful. Amanda, please tell everyone more about the book that's out now, where they can find it and why they should pick it up, sure.

Amanda Holden 43:21

So, yeah, it's called How to be a rich old lady, you will if you look for it, you'll find it. It is like hot pink and red the cover, which I think looks really, really amazing. And I would describe it as like an investing or a financial independence roadmap. And so whereas the bulk of the book does focus on specifically investing and building wealth. The idea generally is, how are we using money as a tool to create the wild, beautiful life that you want? And so even if you are starting from maybe what feels like zero, it's it's a great book that you can use. There's a great financial foundations section that comes first and will bring you through the order of operations that you need to go through even before you start investing. And then, yeah, it's been mostly investing. And then then I've got some extra fun stuff at the end, including a chapter on investing in community, including a chapter on, like, what the apocalypse is my retirement plan. And so ethical investing as well. You know, I'm like, I would consider myself a little bit of a subject matter expert in ethical investing. And so if that's something that you're interested in as well, it's, it's all in there. And I should also say rich old lady is kind of like, like, you can think of it as your avatar for financial independence. And so for anybody that is having a hard time understanding, like, why, like, really putting money away to use 20, 3040, years from now, that sounds horrible. I get it, and we're going to bring you through some exercises to understand why it matters. And so rich old lady is you don't have to be rich. Rich, you don't have to be old. You don't even have to be a lady. To be a rich old lady. It's really a vibe. It's an essence, okay? And so anybody can be a rich old lady, yes. And so that's the book, and you can find it anywhere books are sold. And then if you wanted to come follow me on social media, I'm at dumpster. Dot, doggy, okay?

Jamila Souffrant 45:19

Love, love, that name, Amanda. Thank you so much for coming on the show again, sharing about just what you've been up to your book. I will link all of that in the episode show notes so that anyone can just like, click and find it. And then if you're listening to this, you know, tag me at journey to launch, at Jamila Souffrant, and then at dumpster, dot doggie, so we can know that you listened and what your takeaway was. So thank you again, Amanda, it's the best being here. Thank you so much. Don't forget, you can get the episode show notes for this episode by going to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening to this and you can still grab your jumpstart guide for free to help you on your journey to financial freedom by going to journey to launch.com/jumpstart you. If you want to support me and the podcast and love the free content and information that you get here, here are four ways that you can support me in the show. One, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen, whether that's Apple podcasts, that purple app on your phone, your Android device, YouTube, Spotify, wherever it is that you happen to listen, just subscribe so you are not missing an episode. And if you're happening to listen to this in Apple podcasts, rate review and subscribe there. I appreciate and read every single review. Number two, follow me on my social media accounts. I'm at journey to launch on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. And I love, love, love interacting with journeyers. There three, support and check out the sponsors of this show. If you hear something that interests you, sponsors are the main ways we keep the podcast lights on here, so show them some love for supporting your girl. Four. And last but not least, share this episode, this podcast, with a friend or family member or co worker so that we can spread the message of Journey to launch. All right, that's it until next week. Keep on journeying. Journeyers. You.

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