Episode 417: Mastering Money & Entrepreneurship: How to Build a Thriving Business & Life w/ Grant Sabatier

Grant Sabatier 0:02

I wanted to also build a business that I felt was kind of climate change and recession proof in a way, like, if you build an institution in a community that people love and a brand that people love, they're going to show up for years, and then their kids are going to show up. But you know, becomes an institution. T minus 10 seconds,

Speaker 1 0:24

welcome to the journey. To launch podcast with your host, Jamila Souffrant as a money expert who walks her talk. She helps brave journeyers like you get out of debt, save, invest and build real wealth. Join her on the journey to launch, to financial freedom, 54321,

Jamila Souffrant 0:52

if you want the episode show notes for this episode, go to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening To this episode in the show notes, you'll get the transcribed version of the conversation, the links that we mentioned, and so much more also, whether you are an OG journeyer or brand new to the podcast, I've created a free jump start guide to help you on your financial freedom journey. It includes the top episodes to listen to, stages to go through to reach financial freedom, resources and so much more you can go to journey to launch.com/jump start to get your guide right now. Okay, let's hop into the episode. Hey, hey, hey, journeyers, welcome to the journey to launch podcast. I have on a special guest. I know I always say my guests are special, but my guest today, we go way back. His name is Grant Sabatier. He is an entrepreneur, investor and author of the international bestseller financial freedom, a proven path to all the money you will ever need, which has been translated into 15 languages. It's been popular around the world. He has a new book that's coming out, might be out by the time you listen to this called inner entrepreneur, a proven path to profit and peace, and that's going to be out in March. And he also has online businesses. He now is a owner of a bookstore, which I can't wait to talk to him about, and at brick and mortar bookstore in Columbus, Ohio, and has done so many things within this space. So welcome back to the podcast. Grant Sabatier, by the way, he's been on episodes 48 and 82 so I'll put those in the episode show notes if you want even a more backstory than what we're gonna get into. But again, welcome to the podcast, Grant, Yeah,

Grant Sabatier 2:32

glad to be here. It's been far too long since we've connected, so I'm excited to chat. Yeah,

Jamila Souffrant 2:37

you know, as I was reading your book title, this story popped up really quickly. So your book came out way before my book. Your title, your book is financial freedom. And then you know, you have your subtitle. And so my book is called your journey to financial freedom. Your book came out first. And my daughter saw your book and on my the bookshelf after my book came out, and she was like, Mom, he has the same name as your book, or that person has your name in the book. I was like, well, technically, Blake, yeah, his book came out first, but it's such, like, a popular, like, phrase, you know. So I thought that was funny. It just reminded me when I was reading your bio. But wow, it's been such a while since you've been on the show, I feel like it's been a couple years. And in previous episodes, we've always we've gotten to your backstory, which I don't mind getting into, just there might be some people who are totally new to who you are, but what I really want to do is get into kind of where you've been for the past few years. It's been 10 years since you reached financial independence. So grant, by the way, is one of those people who actually is doing what we all want to do, working because he wants to, and we want to hear like, what that's like. And then all these pivots and changes in your life, like becoming a dad opening up a brick and mortar store. I mean, so many things to be updated on. So before we get into all that, can you give maybe, like, a quick elevator pitch of how you became financially independent? Yeah,

Grant Sabatier 4:00

at the at the age of 24 I had to move back home with my parents. I was completely broke. This is in 2010 and really was just trying to figure out my life and what I wanted to do. And I went to a July 4 party. And all of my parents friends, you know, they were in their 50s and early 60s. They were talking about money in retirement, and they were stressed about money, and I was broke. I had no money. And it really dawned on me, okay, obviously money is important. Is there a way that I can make as much money as possible, as quickly as possible, just so I don't have to worry about it? And so I really, you know, ironically, hadn't thought about money much beyond not having any, but I started going down the rabbit hole and found Vicki Robin's book your money or your life, and read it, and it completely just transformed my life. By far the book that has had the biggest impact on my life, and in the book, it was, you know, whenever you're working, you're trading your time for money. And my takeaway was, okay, I need to make as much money as quickly as possible and save as much of it just so I can get that money working for me. So I went out, looked for a. A job that I could do when I was doing a Google search, learned about Google ads, figured out I could get certified by Google for free to run Google ads. Did the certification took me about a month applied to a digital marketing job running Google campaigns. Just because I had the certification, that's all I needed to get the job. Got the job was making $52,000 in that first job at a digital agency in Chicago, really got a PhD in digital marketing that year that I was at the agency, I learned about SEO, building websites, branding, advertising. I mean, it was just I learned more in that one year at the agency, probably than I'd learned in my entire life. And so I knew that digital marketing was going to be the path that I could use to reach financial independence. So I started building websites on the side, and then eventually left that agency after a year and got into marketing, business school and higher education programs. Scaled that company, ended up leaving that business, and it took me five years and three months from the time that I started my financial independence journey to reach financial independence, which for me was $1.25 million in liquid assets. And I figured that I could live basically at about $50,000 you know, for the rest of my life. And after that, you know, really do whatever I wanted to do. And it was really, you know, I just turned 30, and it was really at this time that I started looking out and saying, Okay, I've been making a lot of money, saving a lot of money, but I really don't really don't like what I've been doing. Is there a way that I could spend my time doing something that I enjoy a lot more, while also making a little bit of extra money just to hedge the risk on my investment portfolio? So really started an entire new career when I was 30, and it's just, I just turned 40 in December, so that was 10 years ago. So So much has happened in the last decade, and I've, you know, continued to think a lot about money and time and meaning and entrepreneurship, and now I'm really excited to release a second book. Didn't really think I was going to write a second book to be honest with you, but I'm excited to share it with the world and and continue to build on this work. So 10

Jamila Souffrant 7:05

years ago, you reached your version of financial independence, and your number back then was spending $50,000 a year. But as we know, and I think one of the things that scares people is just the just how things will change, whether that's your needs, if you have a partner, children, just life. So for you, how has that changed in terms of how much you currently need to live like have Have you seen that increase? Where are you now with that?

Grant Sabatier 7:30

Yeah, significantly. So I've been fortunate, because I started investing so early, so that money that even the 1.2 5 million that I have invested, has grown pretty considerably, and so over time, you know, I wouldn't call it lifestyle inflation. I would call it more just spending a larger amount of the money that I have, but still maintaining that 4% ish withdrawal rate scenario. So I still, you know, live and die by the 4% I'm trying to live off the income that I'm generating through other activities, as opposed to my investment income, but I spend a fair amount of money now because I do have a kid. I actually live in two places. I live in Columbus, Ohio and in Brooklyn, so I'm living in both now, and so having two homes adds complexity, but you know, it's funny, because even when you know you have more money and you reach five you reach financial independence, the complexity around money is still grows in some way. You can keep it really, really simple, you know, as you alluded to, but yeah, I wasn't married, I didn't have a kid, I, you know, a lot more. I'd say, just time freedom, when I reach financial independence the first time. The great thing, though, is even though I spend quite a bit more money building off of that foundation, and allowing yourself the opportunity to change and grow is a far better position than not pursuing financial independence in the first place. And one of the things I tried to do in my first book, and just always encourage people to do is you're changing so rapidly, you're often changing faster than you recognize. And so it's important to take the time to stop, maybe once a year, and look back and reflect and be like, okay, is this still my five number? Am I still willing to make these trade offs? Do I want to spend more money? Do I want to spend less and realizing that some of the variables you can control and then some, some you actually can't. But what you don't want to do is get in a position where you far exceeded your run rate and cash flow rate, and you're spending, you know, way too much money. So it is. It is really, really a fine balance, but it's something, it's a I think it's something that you go through, unless you have, you know, $500 million or something. I think it's something that everyone who's financially independent is being smart about and doing is just continuing to evolve your relationship with money and understanding that everything is not concrete.

Jamila Souffrant 9:58

I know I mean, and. Definitely want to get into some points of your book, and maybe this is all mentioned in it, but your journey to building Millennial Money to make it profitable as a brand, and then you sold it. So I'd like to kind of talk about that a bit, because there's so many people without online businesses now. You had a lot of experience with, like you said, building sites and really like marketing, like growing this machine, having it optimized, where you were able to do what you did. But I'd love to kind of go through that, because there's so many online entrepreneurs now, and maybe, you know, they want to keep their asset forever, maybe they're building it, and hopefully one day want to sell it, or they don't even know that's an option. But can you walk through what that was like and then your decision to buy it back. That's

Grant Sabatier 10:40

actually a really good segue to the book, because it's all there's a fair amount of that in the book where it talks about and there is a tone in the book around, hey, you know, I've been creating content now for about 15 years. I've been doing digital marketing for 15 years. Here are kind of things that I think matter the most, and here are what I think are the biggest risks. It is very online business, online creator specific, even though I get into other types of businesses. But there's a lot of things that people a lot of sort of, I think, tried and true principles that will matter no matter what technology is. Kind of the dominant technology of the day that I put into the book, some of these things that I talk about are really around building an online business that you get joy from and that you love, and you're getting dividends from beyond just the money. And I talk about how, at least for me, the way in which you make money ultimately determines the amount of happiness that you can get from it, the amount of joy that it can create in your life. And for me, I really even by the time I'd made a lot of money because I'd been doing it for a job that I didn't really care much about. I mean, marketing, business schools is fine, but it wasn't really something. It wasn't my mission. It didn't light me up. I wasn't excited about it. You know, there's just something missing in my life. And so I talk a lot about, at least with Millennial Money, once I switched from kind of just trying to serve myself to serving others, there was there was more that I was able to unlock. And so a lot of business books are like, here's how you start a business, and this is really about how you start a business that you love, that also helps you expand your life and open up new opportunities. And I think it's a unique kind of business, and I see a lot of people today just kind of jumping on whatever blueprint someone else has, and that's fine. It's great learning, it's great experimentation, but just like I grew things and burnt out. I think the rate of sort of acceleration and burnout today is even greater. So I think, how do you build something sustainable in your life? And I talk a lot about this, like sustainable cash flow, sustainable income, sustainable profit. How do you build sustainability, as opposed to just kind of like always trying to arbitrage something, or always trying to jump on the next thing. And so for me, with Millennial Money, you know, ironically, I started the website in 2015 and I had no idea that I could make money doing it. I just wanted to share what I knew, and I took it very seriously. And every every piece was kind of built from scratch. And, you know, I took a lot of pride in it, and I learned a lot doing it. And I think, you know, it's that, that energy that's, like, always so beautiful when you start something new that you're really excited about. And I think there's a lot of things that I did right, and even not knowing that they were right. And so I break some of those down, you know, in the book, you know, talking about actual vulnerability and being vulnerable versus sort of manufactured vulnerability. You see a lot of people today trying to manufacture vulnerability and be open and stuff, but I think people really only truly connect with real vulnerability. And so I talk about that and how I shared very openly. And, you know, I break down some of these sort of key components to building a brand and and now looking back, it's pretty easy to see the things that I did right and the things that I did wrong, but doing it the first time, I really had no idea what I was doing. And so, you know, I built the website, ended up growing. I met some people who were monetizing their websites, you know, other personal finance creators, which is really funny, right? Because now, a lot of the stuff that I did and made money, you know, because of all the Google algorithm updates and all the changes, the opportunity really isn't there, right? So I was able to take advantage of this kind of limited time when people were going to personal finance websites and clicking on affiliate links and signing up for products and, you know, it's pretty tick tock, really kind of pre YouTube growth in a lot of ways. But the thing is, in one way is, like, I talk in the book like I'm, like, 100 years old in internet years, but it's fun because, like, looking back now, you know, as my beard is more gray and I have more perspective, I can extrapolate some of the lessons that I learned in that time period that are timeless. Are really kind of relevant no matter what, whether you're creating content on Tiktok or YouTube or whatever. And I think a lot of it boils down to the limits that you set in your life, how you see opportunities. And so, I mean, there's just so much in the book, like I jam packed it and tried to add as much value as I could, but I was able to grow Millennial Money and then sell it five years later to the Motley Fool for for me, like a life changing amount of money, you know, that really, just like put put me in a new a new level. And the reason that they bought it was very different from what I could have ever imagined. You know, it was making affiliate revenue, you know, I was making money, you know, from a course I was like, had all these different revenue streams diversified on the blog, but what they only wanted it for was to take all the millennial traffic and convert it into Motley Fool subscribers. And so they just wanted the traffic, and they basically calculated, I think they calculated the amount that they were willing to pay, not as a multiple of the revenue, which ended up being quite high, but as basically, how much would we have to pay Google for this traffic if we were paying on a cost per click basis, which is something I didn't know really till afterwards. You know, I'm in the pressure cooker, you know, with it, trying to get as much money as I can for it. But, you know, taught me a lot of things. Like, when you're building a business to sell, there are many different types of buyers, and I walk through that in the book, and How To Find Buyers And how to evaluate buyers, but it's often someone's buying it for a reason that you don't quite know, or you won't quite understand, and so you don't want to undersell your value. You don't want to unders you know, undervalue your asset. And you really have to consider each individual buyer and the value that they perceive as perhaps being different than the value that you think that you've created. So I walked through basically how to come up with an idea all the way to selling the company, then buying companies and building a holding company, because I wanted to show the expansive view of entrepreneurship everything that I've learned from the beginning to now, I own multiple companies, and brick and mortar business and online businesses, I wanted to show the entire progress so that someone who's just starting as an entrepreneur, or early in their entrepreneur journey could be like, Whoa. If I make this choice and this choice, it's going to significantly increase the chance that I can sell the business in the future, or if I do these things, it's going to minimize the chance that I end up with, like, a bunch of employees, and I'm stressed out, you know, I probably like you, Jamila, I'm very partial to asset light businesses where I don't have to have huge teams and high overhead. But I have had companies that were like that, and so I talk about the trade offs between those two, and really how I create these limits in my own life which protect me and allow me to have more freedom and do things on my own terms, but don't, but sort of limit me in the sense that they've limited some of the growth that I could have. So it really is like, a choose your own, choose your own adventure type book where I want people to say, like, I'd love for people to read it be like, No, I don't want that, that, that that or that, but I'm interested in this. And, oh, I've never thought about entrepreneurship, you know, in that way.

Jamila Souffrant 18:15

Yeah. So how many people were visiting the site at the time when it was bought? Like, what did they see when they looked

Grant Sabatier 18:21

at it? Yeah, so there were about 700,000 unique visitors a month to the website, and so there were quite a bit. And the thing about them is they were very high quality. So these are people visiting pages that were quite relevant to the Motley Fool's portfolio. So you know, posts like best investment companies, or how to start investing in stocks, or, you know, those types of which is a very, very high quality visitor, and they're worth a lot more than someone, say, coming to, you know, a post about Taylor Swift's net worth or something, you

Jamila Souffrant 18:57

actually brought up something about the idea the possibilities are very expansive when it comes to entrepreneurship, like, there's things you don't even know are possible. And it's interesting, because I've had, like, conversations with people or companies interested in Journey to launch, but I didn't, I don't feel like it's at its pinnacle or it's at its height. So there's going to be a trade off in, like, thinking about what that looks like to sell. And if I even want to do that right? And so when I started this years ago, I didn't even that wasn't even a thought with millennia money. And like a lot of online brands now, like they are personal now, I know you kind of stepped away. Your face wasn't necessarily as on it, but it's not like it was grant it wasn't your name as the brand, even though you were powering it, and people knew that it was your blog, I think similar to me. I mean, my face sells a lot of the things, or the voice is the podcast. I am the podcast and the brand. But what are your thoughts and ideas of, you know, being a business forward facing, no face, you know, kind of personalization? Not one person versus a one person kind of brand, and it's markability and sellability when the time comes, if that's what someone wants

Grant Sabatier 20:09

to do, yeah, I think you need to put your face on everything you can at the beginning. And I did this. You came to the website. You saw my face. You saw me speaking to a crowd. I think you need to really, really tell good stories, connect with people. Use that to build an audience, an email list, you know, a phone list. You need to that's how you build an audience. As people connect with people you know more than they connect with brands. And then you just need to be strategic as you build that audience, to start bringing in other voices, other creators, other people who can also add value, you know, to your network, and then you can slowly slide away and just make yourself a little bit less accessible. You're still there. But a big thing for me was taking myself off the front of the website, right? You don't see my I mean, like your your face is on your book, right? I chose I didn't want to be on my book. I didn't want it to be, you know, about Grant. I wanted it to be about millennials, and here where this generation that we're going to think about money differently. And I wanted it always I talked about this in the book. I wanted people to come and this is part of the strategy, because I went to fin con in 2015 and I looked at all the creators, and what I saw is all these really great creators who were very open and vulnerable, but it was all about them and their face and their websites were kind of janky, and their their their website was their name, or something kind of, you know, cheeky, you know, thinking of something like budgets are sexy, which love Jay money in his blog, but it's like that limits its potential marketability in some ways. And then there's all these, like finance brands that are really shiny, and they really can't say anything because there's all these regulations. And so for me, the strategy was going right at the middle. I'm going to create a brand that's a brand that looks really shiny, so people will want to work with it, but I'm going to inject it with so much vulnerability and personal meaning that it's going to hopefully connect with people. So that was, I thought about that from the beginning. But from the beginning, people thought that Millennial Money was, you know, 20 people I'd get reach, you know, outreach from bank, CMOs and companies who's like, connect me with the HR person. Connect me with this person. Your marketing team this and so this is when it was just me, and it had the appearance of being something so much bigger than just my personal website and blog, and that allowed me to sell bigger brand deals and bigger partnerships and work with people in different ways. And then it got to the point it was really funny, because, like, one company would see, you know, some brand would see another brand on it, and then their CMO, or whoever would be, like, we need to be on that website. And that was really fun for a while, because it's just, like, a lot of people want to be on it, and so that I was able to monetize that. But I think it's important to be yourself from the beginning as a creator, and then there's so much about creating creator companies and other businesses and all this integration. Like, I've tried to do a lot of other things, like I launched an app, you know, I've invested in a number of companies. I was never able to leverage my Creator energy to build any auxiliary products. But what I was able to do, yeah, was build the money on money brand and then make it really, really easy for someone else to buy. And so that's the important thing. You eliminate what's known as key man risk in acquisitions, which is, I was the key man. So if everything, if I knew everything, and everything was, you know, built around me and my voice and my name, and I didn't share, you know, how I did things. It makes it so difficult for someone to come and acquire so I really was big on creating SOPs when I started those acquisition conversations, so anyone could really pick up something and learn. Here's how we create blog content and publish it and optimize it for SEO. Here's how we manage our email newsletter list. Here's how we manage all the functionality behind the website. And when I sold to the Motley Fool, I sent them a number of very, very detailed documents on exactly how to run everything. I was pretty prepared for that. Once I thought, maybe I can sell this thing, but you can build that from the beginning. It's just knowing when to transition from it, just being you, the creator, to something else, is challenging, but, but it's very important, because most acquisitions fail 80 to 90% of them, and people who buy businesses are very smart and they they tend to be smart, and so they understand there are these risks. And so I walked through the book. Here's all the things that you can do to make it as easy as possible for someone else to buy you, and as attractive as possible for someone else to buy you. And here's how to have those conversations, and here's also how to navigate the field of all the people. Who could reach out to you, acting like they want to buy you, but just trying to get competitive Intel, because there's a lot, yeah, there's a lot of those as well.

Jamila Souffrant 25:09

Hey, journeyers, if you are loving this podcast, then you will love my book, Your journey to financial freedom, a step by step guide to achieving wealth and happiness. I wrote this book for you. This book is for you if you want a clear and enjoyable path to having more money, options and a rich life, this book is for you if you hate your commute and the fact that you need to seek approval or permission from a boss. I hated that when I worked. This book is for you. If you weren't born into wealth, you didn't marry rich or win the lottery, but you still want freedom. This book is for you. If you're at a crossroads, a major decision or event is imminent, maybe a career change, marriage, starting a family, pressures are reaching a tipping point, and the discomfort and the desire for more can no longer be ignored. And this book is for you. If you find yourself zoned out at meetings, looking out the window or daydreaming about the life you truly want. So go pick up your journey to financial freedom.com. So I can show you how to map out how to get from where you are today to where you ultimately want to be. And enjoy the journey while you're on the path, head over to your journey to financial freedom.com. To see where you can pick the book up. It's available on Amazon, bookshop.org, Barnes and Noble, your local bookstore everywhere go to your journey to financial freedom.com. To get the book now, okay, I want to know so you said that it was life changing money, even for you at the time, who was already financially independent. Why did you come back like so if life changing money, you could have said, All right, now I'm really gonna just and not that you weren't gonna work at all, but, you know, just chill and but you didn't. So let me know why at that point, or what led up to you buying it back. Yeah.

Grant Sabatier 27:02

So after I sold I, you know, signed a consulting agreement with them, which is pretty typical for a creator business. So one year agreement, or basically they paid me a certain amount of money per month. I was available for calls to help if anything, you know, went off the rails, and so I did one call a month with them. So I was kind of loosely involved, but emotionally, I was checked out. I was done. I was like, I felt so happy that I didn't have to be grant at Millennial Money, that it was that someone else's problem. It was their thing. It ended up being a really good time, just based on the market to sell. So I was happy. So I kind of just chilled out basically for almost two years, just doing this consulting engagement, just hanging out, bought a house, moved to Ohio, bought a grill, sat in hammock, read a lot of books, you know, pretty low key. But then I started getting the itch just to do something else, just kind of try, almost like, do I still have it vibe? And so I bought this domain bank bonus.com because there have been a lot of banks that worked with us on Millennial Money. But there, I didn't feel like there was a good website that highlighted all the different sign up bonuses that you could get. Yeah, you could find them on NerdWallet, all these places, but there wasn't a dedicated website that was very well built where you could just go and be like, what's the best? But I need to sign up for x. What are the best bonuses where I live? What are the criteria? There are a couple amateurish sites that did this. So I bought bank bonus.com. Connected with two of the people that I'd hired to work with me on Millennial Money. They started working with me, or started growing bank bonus, started making a little bit of money. And I was like, Huh, you know, okay, this is kind of fun. Now I have other people doing everything. I just own a majority, you know, I brought on partners. I just own a majority of this holding company, MMG media, you know, is, let's see, is, you know, do I want to do more? Like, how am I feeling about this? And so then, you know, we had the Millennial Money, like, was starting to drop. And there are all these things happening, happening internally there where I was just like, Huh? I wonder if I could just buy this back for as little money as possible, and then just turn it around. Because a lot of the changes they'd made, like I said, were focused on getting traffic to their particular product. They weren't affiliate based. But now that I was working again with all these banks and had all these relationships, I was like, huh, maybe I can buy this, put my own links on it, and just monetize it at really what now, in hindsight, has been kind of the last hurrah of affiliate marketing in the finance space. And so, yeah, I was able to acquire it back, buy it back, but buy it back through the lens of, how am I going to monetize this, not how am I going to be grant again? And so there's a limit to that. I mean, I've posted on Instagram, I think now, just with the new before, posting about the new book a couple weeks ago, like two times in four years, or something like so I and I sent out an email newsletter. For a year after buying back Millennial Money. But it's, it hasn't been a lot of grant. You know, I still have really hidden in a lot of ways, which, you know, in hindsight, makes marketing a book The second time a little more challenging, but has really helped me protect my soul. And so I have, still have those limits. And I talk in the book a lot about how I think freedom really only exists within limits, and the better you are creating these limits in your life, the more freedom you're able to experience. And I think that that's one of them. It's just like Instagram or social media. For me, it's like, like, I don't want to spend my time in creating in this way. I also just feel like I'm only good at a few things when it comes to the internet and a lot of what's changing. I'm just, I'm just not up to date on and so for me, that's why I actually decided to write another book. Because I was like, I know how to write books. I like writing books. I feel like I can contribute and participate in the world and get back in this way, but I don't have to, like, you know, launch a YouTube channel, or build a YouTube channel, or do all these other things, which, over time for creators, everything has become more and more professionalized and more and more competitive and more and more difficult. There's more people paying attention, but I do think it's more difficult to make money as a creator today than it was then. And so for me, it's just like, How can I engage with the world in a way that I want to but not have to do all the other things? And that's always a tension point, right? Because now I'm marketing the book, right? And so now I've got to get on and talk about it, and, like, send out. I mean, I sent out the first email to my email newsletter list in over a year announcing the book, and it was really nice because it sold, sold copies, and I got a lot of emails back, and it felt really good. But on the flip side, it also felt like, gosh, I just, I have these, these assets that I used to, you know, use and leverage really well, and now I don't, and then it's the other piece of like capitalism and making money really rewards just consistency, right, and increased efficiency, right? It's like so I, and I'm not good at that, I build and then I kind of burn out, and that protects me and keeps me safe, but I think, I think also has limited, probably the impact that I can have. And yes, I was able to sell the website. But, you know, I think of even people like you, or, you know, like a Tim Ferriss, or, you know, anyone who's like, you're so consistent with your show, you know, choose by like, continued, continued. And I, like, was like, Wow, man. I can't imagine, like, how big you know, my podcast would be, or even how many more books I would have sold if I would have just kept at it. But I really just, I can't. I really just cannot do things that I lose interest in or that that, yeah, that's just, that's, that's one of the things I think that keeps me safe, but also limits some of the things in my life. But

Jamila Souffrant 32:56

the reason why you're able to step back at will is because of the financial net that you created for yourself also, right? So I think that's like, the beauty of financial independence and being on this journey to financial freedom, and the different stages there are is that, you know, even if you don't get to the point where you never have to work again, and I'm kind of feeling this too, so it's interesting that you're talking about consistency, because I do think that's the one thing I'm good at, in certain ways, is the podcast has been running now, like non stop, but I'm definitely not, probably even marketing, like I could do a lot better job marketing. I always like joke around and say, when we first met, I had a lot more energy, so I was all over the place thinking of ideas how to like get on shows and grow the podcast. And I'm just not feeling that anymore. And like many, I think people listening who maybe have ideas maybe don't, and I also am not. I'm on social media, but I'm it's not something I enjoy, or I'm not putting out the best content. Like, my Instagram has been stuck at like, the same followers for like, the last year or two. I don't even know at this point, and so I think I struggle with that a bit, and I have the luxury and benefit of having a financial net, but I do think there is a limit, especially for my net, because I'm in like you, you know, you're a father now, so, you know, but I have three kids. We still all, all of us live in New York City, and so thinking through to what like I want my life to look like, and that work balance is definitely something that it's it's more evident. It's like, okay, Jamila, do you want to work more and push more so you can earn more money in the meantime to support the expenses you want to keep or, you know, you could pull back and you'd be fine. But do you want to do that? And then with that, what does your work life look like? And I think there's a lot of people who are looking at this world and maybe have something to share and a value, but they don't want to do all the things, and they don't want to do the Tick Tock dances and start the accounts and be do all the things, and so they kind of feel just a little stuck or not knowing where to go. So any advice? Yeah. For them listening?

Grant Sabatier 35:01

Yeah, no, I really feel you on all this. I also think there's a moment for everything, and I think that we're in a really awkward moment, like I mentioned, for creators, where, unless you're willing to pick one channel, and that could be anything, I mean, it could be YouTube, Tiktok, books, podcast, and you're willing to go all in on it. If you can't do that, then it's going to be very difficult to grow, get reach. And the reason is because everything is just becoming more and more competitive and professionalized. When YouTube is like watching TV, right? It's better than TV and podcast, or there's so many good ones, we all have less and less attention. So it's very important, if you have a creative business, or if you want to start one, to just pick your lane, pick the thing that you want to get really, really good at, start testing it, experimenting with it, see how it makes you feel, because you're going to learn a lot, and then learn everything you can about it, and try to be, you know, not the best, but just try to be really, really, really good at it, whether that's just having an amazing Instagram account or tick tock account, who knows what's going to happen with tick tock or an amazing newsletter. I think you I think people struggle, and I talk in the book about this, just trying to do too much, even hiring other people to do too much, and so you get spread thin, and you're like, I Yes, I have different audiences on all of these platforms, but I'm really just not doing great at any of them, right? And they're not growing, or that's not and so the only way to really get attention, I think, is to pick one and just try to be the best at that. And like, for me, that's writing books, and I know that's gonna be writing books. So if I can keep writing a book every 560, years and contributing to the world in that way. If I sell enough of them, I'll get paid to write more of them, and I can just keep that create in that way, which is its own challenge. But yeah, I think pick your lane. Try to be the best you can at it. And then the other piece is figure out what you really have to offer, and what you really Yes, your story is important. It's valuable sharing your perspective. But I think a lot of people just go in and start blindly sharing without understanding what conversation Am I participating in. Why will people pay attention to my voice? Like, what do I have to offer that's different. What do I have to say that's maybe unique? Or how can I learn to participate in this conversation and get better at participating in this conversation in a way that people will feel as valuable and pay attention to? And I think this is so difficult being a creator, because you have to be open, you have to be vulnerable. You're putting yourself out there. You're getting judged. You're getting feedback. You're getting feedback based on how you grow and the people that like you. And you're also getting feedback when things don't grow and you're like, why is this happening? Do people even care? And all creators struggle with this, even the top creators get far less inbound than you probably think they do. They get far less opportunities than you think they do. Everyone struggles with this, and so it's tough because you're putting yourself out there and you're getting judged, and that's like double harshness, right? Because you it can be very difficult, and so I think it's important. I really hated being a creator in a lot of ways because of that, and it's very difficult for me to do. But once I figured out, okay, here's the things that I like to do with the things I'm good at, I just try to participate in that way. And then the opportunities that come from it, they come from it, the ones that don't but I think now you almost have to go into being a creator, thinking through, how am I going to monetize this? Or at least being smart about how you're going to monetize this. We talked about, yeah, brand deals have changed. They're just not as prevalent as they were. I think brands have just gotten a lot of kind of influence or fatigue, or they just focus on certain types of influencers as opposed to actual creators. So brand deals were what's great. Now they're kind of drying up. Certain things that paid well will dry up. Yes, you can, you know, so like, how do you how are you going to monetize this thing and monetize this thing in a way that you're happy with and that can hopefully sustain you? But it's hard, it's hard and it's hard to sustain and it's hard to grow, but there's a lot of value in trying, and there's a lot of value in figuring it out. If you're curious and you want to to work hard and experiment, but if you're not willing to figure it all out, then you're kind of it's it's really difficult to be successful at, yeah, and

Jamila Souffrant 39:41

it's almost like entrepreneurship is not for everyone. And so if that nine to five or whatever hours you have, and you feel like you can make a life that you feel good about and you enjoy the way you're making money and or carve that out for yourself intentionally, go about finding a job that. You feel that way about that can support your expenses while on the path, you could still be on the path to financial independence with a regular nine to five. I mean, that's how that's where I started. Then that may be for you, and you can try out entrepreneurship as an entrepreneur myself, I think it's changed. I mean, I couldn't imagine, like this part of my life, working a nine to five, all the freedoms that I have and things I've been able to do, but I just always like to say, Yes, it's nice. The freedom is nice, but there's also a lot that comes along with it. And so you sometimes you don't know that until you try it, until you're going through it. But some people, I think, also just know it's not necessarily. Everyone else, like the environment, won't change, because whatever issues you do have, I think working a nine to five or with a boss, or with your co workers, I believe, come into your business, and it's even more pressure, and worse, because there is no one, there is no one else to blame, but you right now or in the time that if you're struggling, so it's just something to ponder.

Grant Sabatier 40:58

Yeah. I mean, I argue that everyone's kind of naturally an entrepreneur. It's just, yeah, you decide whether or not it's right for you, and if you do, it's important to figure out what it means to you, just like figuring out what money means to you. So there's no one cut and dry path of what it means to be an entrepreneur. That's why in the book, I put all the most important things I think you need to consider and all the things that really matter. And so if you evaluate those and you're like, oh gosh, this seems like a lot of work, and I don't want to do it, that's fine. At least you've made an educated choice and decision. But for the people that want to actually, oh, I want to try this, it's like, oh, wow, I have a lot more clarity on how this all fits together, and how to make money doing this, and how much time it's going to take and the challenges. And, you know, I want to try it because you do, yeah, like you mentioned, there's a lot of benefits. You learn a lot about yourself. I don't think the nine to five jobs that were really secure in the past are secure now. And so you may be forced, you know, I have a friend who lost his job at a big tech company really experienced, got very experienced guy, and it's been hard, you know, for him to find a job. So now he's testing out, you know, being an entrepreneur, and I argue that you know, if you've tested it out before, something like that happens, and you already know some of these things, or you've made money in different capacities on your own, that sort of event, makes it much easier to then take the leap, because you have more knowledge, you have more experience, and so that you know there's risk in both, both areas. And you're right both, both do accelerate your journey to financial independence, and life is long, and you'll probably have many careers, and I think it's worth considering entrepreneurship. And you know, that doesn't have to be just quitting your job and going all in. It can there's many different variations of what that can look like. And so, yeah, this book's my love letter to entrepreneurship, really. And it's just, like, like my first book, I tried to present a blueprint, kind of, from soup to nuts on here's how to think about this all the way through. And, yeah, I'm just excited to get it out there. And like the first one, I just, you know, hope it helps people in some way.

Jamila Souffrant 42:55

Now, you have an bookstore now, so a brick and mortar business. Tell me about the process of opening that and why you chose, you know, to open this now business, how it's it would seem like it's a lot of work, so you're adding more to your plate. And, you know, is it worth the benefit that you're getting from this? You know, is it intrinsic? Is it like something you just enjoy or like, is it worth the extra effort, the money? Talk about that business? That's a

Grant Sabatier 43:21

great question. So I live in a neighborhood Clintonville and Columbus. It's kind of like the Brooklyn of Columbus, Ohio. It's like a cool neighborhood, kind of eccentric, but by a university, we don't have a really, or we didn't have a good bookstore. And so for me, I was like, gosh, if you know my wife's a professor, if I'm going to live here for the next 2030, years, I think the community would really benefit from a bookstore. And I love books. I collect rare books. Can I build a bookstore? I've always wanted a bookstore. I know it's way more work than most people say, or realized. I knew that kind of going in, I had an immense amount of fun building the bookstore. So it took me eight months, about 1500 hours. It's fun because I was finishing writing my book, and then I would just go to the bookstore and really be alone, putting together the bookshelves, shelving the books, buying books, organizing them, you know, it's just like an immense amount of fun. And then we opened, and just had, you know, open on Black Friday last year, and then just had a really incredible December. People are excited. People are so pumped. I get to meet so many people from the community. From the community. And really, it's added value to my life in the sense that it's rooted me in a place, helped introduce me to a lot of people that I wouldn't know otherwise. And it just feels good to know that I'm able to give back to a community, my community in this way, and I really, actually don't work there that often, so I have three full time employees. We'll see if that's nets out. We broke. Made money in December. It allowed me to pay off most of the books that are in the store. January, we really broke even. February has been a little more of a challenge, so I'm still figuring out all the economics of it. But. I'm not there that often. I spend my time buying collections. I weighed in and out. It was actually funny, because I was in there, someone called in six. I was in there the other day, and someone's like, oh, oh, you work here. Like, are you new? And I was like, No, that's my bookstore. It's kind of like the Wizard of Oz. I'm just like, behind the scenes. It was really, really funny, but it's cool just to walk in there and see, like, the kids reading books and sitting on the window sill, and people just, you know, we've sold, gosh, over 12,000 books so far. That's like, you figure those are all books that people wouldn't maybe have had otherwise or discovered otherwise, and you just think about the compounding impact of that. So it feels really good just to, like, build this and give this to the community. Do I think it'll make any money? I'm probably not. Am I okay with that? I think so. Did I think about that beforehand a little bit, you know? So, like, I really, I really felt the energy to build it. I was so, I felt so intuitively driven to build it. I was like, you're going to do this. And I loved, loved building it. Managing it is more challenging. Managing is more challenging. I do think, long term, you know, this is a neighborhood that's changing a lot. You know, Columbus is a city that's really growing. It's by far, I think the coolest bookstore in Columbus people drive. I've driven like hours to come and see it. I just did an interview this morning with like, Columbus monthly magazine. We're gonna have these magazine features. It's fun to take my marketing hat and kind of wear it in a local capacity, and just, it's like playing with a really souped up lemonade stand. And then, you know, I collect books. I'm able to buy some really cool books and acquire some cool books for my own collection. How this will fulfill and drive my life longer term, very hard being in New York and in Columbus and having a bookstore hard to manage it remotely. So that's something I think I've got to figure out. What's

Jamila Souffrant 46:51

the biggest difference between building an online business and building this brick and mortar? You could say, yeah,

Grant Sabatier 46:57

so online businesses by far, asset light, just better in every way, almost what you don't have. At least for me, my a lot of my online businesses have been dependent upon Google traffic. You know, there's always that risk, reward scenario, you also have to spend a lot of time on a computer. So I really don't spend that much time on a computer. I write my books on an iPad, but I I don't have to be online much, which is nice when I with with the bookstore. But I wanted to also build a business that I felt was kind of climate change and recession proof in a way, like if you build an institution in a community that people love, and a brand that people love, they're going to show up for years, and then their kids are going to show up. But, you know, it becomes an institution. And so I really thought about, how do I build an institution that, if it makes money, maybe I could make it so it, like, generates $60,000 in positive cash flow for me a year, and that would be fine, you know? And it just, it's just hums, and, you know, it's a really nice little cash flowing business in my portfolio, and I get to wait in and out. If that's even possible, I don't know, but I think it's funny, it's like there's less risk in building something like that, just because, unless a bookstore opened across the street right, or something happened like that. But even then, because it is Clintonville books, and it's in Clintonville, and it's kind of the only one of its thing, I think I have early mover advantage to something like that happening. But once again, there's all these like theories and thoughts and how it actually plays out in practice. I can tell you, I do get a lot of joy when I am in Columbus, going in there, being in there, pricing books, buying books, that is very fulfilling. And I hope it is long term,

Jamila Souffrant 48:53

yeah. And I would think too, just like the brick and mortar, you need more capital upfront, which is why so many people can start like listening right now, you have an idea. You can get a website like you could. You can move quicker with less money to do things you want. Start an Instagram account versus getting a lease. Oh my gosh, the

Grant Sabatier 49:12

city and taxes and bookshelves. I mean, I've got a lot of resources time, and it was challenging for me, you know, navigating all the red tape and a lot of the time, I was like, this is really unfair for people who really should have the opportunity to open something. You know what? I mean? I wish it was so much easier for everybody, and it should be. And that's why retail is struggling. That's why so many retail spaces are vacant. That's why online shopping is just kind of killing communities in a lot of ways, and so I'm trying to fight against that, but I don't really recommend anyone start a retail business unless you can get incredible. I mean, at least rents and Columbus are way more affordable than New York, but unless you can get a good, yeah, and you've really thought through it, and ideally you have some experience. And that's the thing is, I. Have co experience selling books or never work in a bookstore. So I'm learning all that from scratches as well. Okay, here's

Jamila Souffrant 50:06

a part of your life I want to talk about for a little bit before we end, and that is you becoming a father, and how that has impacted your journey to where you are, you know, so you already had reached your fine number. You've started businesses, you're still running businesses, and now you're a dad. So what is that like? How has becoming a dad changed your perspective on things?

Grant Sabatier 50:30

Yeah, first off, it's you see time moving faster. I feel like you literally see time in front of you changing. You know, I think having being a father, just put so much perspective on what's important. I feel grateful that I do have time to spend with her and the resources to spend time with her and give her opportunities. So that's really nice. I do have far less energy to do other things. And I really thought, even with the bookstore, it was like, Is this my last chance to, kind of like, build something like this when she's taking, you know, she takes a lot of time, but I still have some energy, because, yeah, that that the kids, they just take up so much mental and physical and kind of time bandwidth, you know. And I really feel for people starting their financial independence journey who have kids, yeah, it's definitely makes it more challenging and makes it more important to prioritize. And I think, you know, limits, limits your abilities in some way. But also on the flip side, I try to the time that I do have. I try to use it wisely and prioritize better. And, you know, I don't take time for granted, I think, in a way that I did before. Yeah,

Jamila Souffrant 51:42

I always like to say that the kids, for me, especially in the beginning part. I think for a lot of people, when you've realized that y'all you have less control of your time, or no control of your time working in an environment you don't enjoy, or on a commute, it pushes you to figure something out, like your back is against the wall, and you will do anything when it comes to your kids, and that that's what pushed me into this journey, is being pregnant with my first and then, in the same regard, it really helps you manage your time. It forces you to pick what's important, because they're going to demand it from you, and they're just things that needs to be done. So I think it's, I know we met, you didn't have any kids. I think I had, just maybe had started having kids. And I always like, it's funny, especially with men. I don't mean to make this a gender thing, but it's always interesting when I meet men who don't have kids, and how much like what they're doing and energy wise. And there's a lot of women who have kids or don't, and they're still doing their thing. But I always wonder, like a lot of that is, how will that change when you become like when you are responsible for someone else, and having a partner obviously helps. So even in my case, because I have a partner who is equally helpful, allows me to do what I'm doing now, and so that's a big deal. I think, for any entrepreneur that's a parent or starting or thinking about starting something, is what kind of support do you have? Because without it, it's a lot. So I really do feel for like, the single moms and even dads out there that are, like, starting trying to do something.

Grant Sabatier 53:09

Yeah, I think having kids, at least for me, like, grounded me in a weird way, unexpected way. It's like, kind of took me out of my own head, you know, because I have this other person to think through, about and worry about and that's nice. It's nice to nice to be able to do that. But, yeah, I really, it's funny, because I reread financial freedom maybe a couple two years ago or something, when I was writing my new book. And I was like, Gosh, this guy, like, I I didn't even recognize some parts of myself. And I was like, that was immediately what I thought. It was like, Oh, this, you know, he doesn't have a kid. It's just

Jamila Souffrant 53:44

all that's no clue. Yeah, no clue.

Grant Sabatier 53:47

I also find I have a little bit of a challenging time relating to people who don't have kids now, oh, look at that. I don't know if you feel that or just relate, just like you have a conversation and people are like, I'm so busy, and you're like, Oh yeah, you know those things so really, gosh, a lot more work than I could have ever anticipated. But the moments of joy are just unspeakable. You know, it's just so it's so fun. It's just really nice to participate in life in this way. And I always wanted to have kids. I didn't know if I would, and so I feel I'm happy to be to be in this place.

Jamila Souffrant 54:23

Well, while grant like it's really nice to hear that new perspective from you since knowing you before then. But before we go, please tell everyone name of your book again, yeah, when it'll be out, and where they can find it. In our entrepreneur,

Grant Sabatier 54:36

a proven path to profit and peace available everywhere books are sold comes out March 11, 2025 so if you're listening to this before, get it pre order. If it's after, it's available everywhere you can follow me on Instagram, at Grant Sabah ta best way to reach me or grant sabatier.com and yeah, I started to release a few new podcasts. I. Episodes. So it's grant swatia show. I changed the name from the Financial Freedom podcast, so I go deep into what's in the book, and I'm gonna be sharing some stories from the book, you know, on the show. And, yeah, that's the best way to reach me, all

Jamila Souffrant 55:12

right, so I will link all of that in the episode show notes. It was so great catching up grant and thanks for coming on. Yeah, thank you. Don't forget, you can get the episode show notes for this episode by going to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening to this and you can still grab your jumpstart guide for free to help you on your journey to financial freedom by going to journey to launch com slash jumpstart, if you want to support me and the podcast and love the free content and information that you get here, here are four ways that you can support me in the show. One, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen, whether that's Apple podcast, that purple app on your phone, your Android device, YouTube, Spotify, wherever it is that you happen to listen. Just subscribe so you are not missing an episode, and if you're happening to listen to this in Apple podcast, rate review and subscribe there. I appreciate and read every single review. Number two, follow me on my social media accounts. I'm at journey to launch on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, and I love, love, love interacting with journeyers. There three, support and check out the sponsors of this show. If you hear something that interests you, sponsors are the main ways we keep the podcast lights on here, so show them some love for supporting your girl four and last but not least, share this episode, this podcast, with a friend or family member or coworker, so that we can spread the message of Journey to launch. All right, that's it until next week. Keep on journeying. Journeyers. You.

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