Episode 414: Unraveling Financial Fears: Understanding Money Emotions and Behaviors w/ Shannah Game

Shannah Game 0:00

I take a step back, and I want you to think about what does enough look like for you? Can you actually visualize that? Draw it out. I don't care. Write it out, because until you know what that looks like for yourself, you're never going to get there, and so it's never going to be enough. T minus

Speaker 1 0:19

10 seconds. Welcome to the journey to launch podcast with your host Jamila Souffrant as a money expert who walks her talk she helps brave journeyers like you get out of debt, save, invest and build real wealth. Join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom in 543212, 321,

Jamila Souffrant 0:47

if you want the episode show notes for this episode, go to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening to this episode. In the show notes, you'll get the transcribed version of the conversation, the links that we mentioned, and so much more also, whether you are an OG journey or brand new to the podcast, I've created a free jump start guide to help you on your financial freedom journey. It includes the top episodes to listen to, stages to go through to reach financial freedom resources and so much more. You can go to journey, to launch.com/jump start to get your guide right now. Okay, let's hop into the episode. Hey. Hey, journeyers, welcome to the journey to launch Podcast. Today I have on a special guest, Shauna game, who is a powerful financial expert, certified trauma and money specialist and certified financial planner. She's the host of the award winning podcast, everyone's talking money. With over 28 million downloads, her new book, unraveling your relationship with money, discover and ditch your money trauma so you can live an abundant life, takes greeters on a transformative journey to heal the emotional wounds of financial shame, fear and anxiety. Shawna, welcome to the podcast. Actually, welcome back to the podcast. I'm pretty sure you were on the podcast before I have to pull up that episode, but I'm happy to have you back.

Shannah Game 2:08

Thanks so much for having me. It's so good to be here. Yeah.

Jamila Souffrant 2:12

So I love any book or person talking about the what I like to say, invisible things that really impact the tangible and physical, material things we want when it comes to money, because so many of my listeners, my journey is probably your listeners, are struggling to make progress in their finances, and they don't understand why. So I love that your book talks about this, so we're going to get into that, but I want to talk a little bit about your story now you were story. Now, you were on the podcast before, but for anyone who didn't listen to that and wants to learn more about kind of like your journey to where you are, I'd love for you to just give us a little history.

Shannah Game 2:52

So I love what you're talking about there, because money is not about math, and I think that kind of blows people's minds. Now, of course, the math is super important, and the practical side of money is super important, but there's a it's like peeling an onion, right? There's lots of layers that go into us being able to achieve our financial success. So I am a over 20 year financial expert, and have worked almost exclusively with women and at all different income levels. And what's really fascinating to me was that I started to see the same similarities, the same places that people get stuck, the same kind of false beliefs around money that everyone shared, regardless if they were making $50,000 or $5 million a year. And so I started thinking, well, this is really interesting, because I can print them off a financial plan, but in like two months, they're all calling back, and they're like, I need something new, because this isn't working. And so that really made me become more of like a therapist to these people I was working with, and figure out, okay, what is the thing like? What is this common thing that everybody's getting stuck on? And how do I help them get across this bridge? And for me, it was really when I started to dive into the emotions around money and our Money Story, and what we learned from from our childhood, and just all of the gunk that happens. And so then I started saying, well, I should probably go through this process myself, because even though I'm a money expert, I still have made a lot of money mistakes, and that's really what I talk about in my book. It It showcases my story and a lot of other people's stories, because I want people to feel like the thing that you feel maybe is most shameful about money, what you have done or haven't done. It's shared by so many humans that are walking on the face of the earth that it's not even original. And so, you know, we wanted kind of give you the permission slip to take. Down that that shame that you might feel and feel like, okay, there are lots of other people that have experienced this, and they're all still alive and breathing and it's going to be okay. It doesn't mean that you're not able to build wealth, or build generational wealth, or whatever you're trying to move towards. But this really started with an outward journey watching other people and then saying, Okay, I gotta do this work on myself, and then realizing that almost every person has these kind of hang ups that they need to work through.

Jamila Souffrant 5:31

So share a little bit about your journey into becoming like a money expert and figuring that out. And so maybe some of these mistakes you were making, and maybe are still making, and then we can get it more into like the barriers.

Shannah Game 5:44

Well, I'll start off with my sort of aha moment. So I used to be someone who hated looking at atm receipts. And I talk about this story in my book, and I would go to, you know, put money or take money out of the ATM, and I would the receipt would come out, and I would like, fold it into an origami shape and shove it in my wallet. Because it was not that I didn't have money in my bank account, but what my brain did was it started subtracting all of the expenses that I knew I had to pay, and in a nanosecond, I had myself bankrupt on the street, couldn't afford, was going to lose my house, like, that's just how irrational money can be. And so I thought, Okay, this is really ridiculous. I went through a divorce, and all I had to my name was my car with a very expensive car payment and a blue suitcase. That was all I had. And when I left, I left with my blue suitcase, and I actually had to go get money out of the ATM, and that was the moment where I thought to myself, Okay, I've got to look at this receipt like this is such an emotional barrier for me and for anyone listening. It might be, you know, looking at your phone app. It might be even just having a conversation with, you know, your partner around money. It could be any of those sorts of things. So you're going back to your question like, how did I find myself in the money space? A very bizarre path. I started my first business in college, ran that for five years, and ended up selling it, and I had this crazy mix of skills, and went back to get my MBA. And my dad had worked in the financial industry his whole career, and he was like, you know, I'm kind of bored. Do you want to come work with me? And I thought, Okay, why not? I mean, I like money and business. And so from day one, we were working with people who had massive estates like, you know, 100 million dollars plus. And from that I started to see those people have fears around money. Those people think there's never enough money. And if you and I were to, like, Exchange Bank Accounts, we'd be, you know, we'd be so excited. And so then I started looking at some of my like, MBA cohorts, and they knew nothing about personal finance. And I thought, Okay, well, this is really fascinating. We all share these fears, these blocks, these beliefs around money. None of us seem to actually know what we're doing. So that was really like my entry point into this career was, you know, I was so lucky to learn from my dad and to be able to have those experiences, and then to realize that so much of personal finance isn't taught, as you know, and we over complicate things. Industry throws out all these acronyms and wants people to be so super confused about things like investing and buying houses. And so it really became my mission to try to demystify that and also to help people understand again, these these emotions and these blocks that keep you stuck.

Jamila Souffrant 8:44

You talked about avoidance and like not wanting to face your receipts, and I think that is definitely something that impacts or people can relate to. Can you talk about, like, the moment, or what it looked like to actually face that, and was it as bad as you thought it was? Because, I think too, like, because you don't want to look, you know, you can your mind will create all these stories about things, and you can really spiral, and it could seem more worse than it is for and it might not be as bad if you just look at the numbers and make a plan

Shannah Game 9:18

for sure. I mean, that is absolute. That's what happens with anything right, like the moment we decide to stop avoiding it. And it obviously was not as bad as I I had in my head. I actually had more money than I thought I had, which was, you know, a very nice sort of feeling. And, you know, I will say, like the first time I decided to look that like faded night. It didn't take away all of the avoidance feelings for me. It really was like baby stepping, you know. Then I went to, okay, maybe I can start looking at like my bank account app every, you know, couple of days. And then it was like, okay, maybe I could look every. Day, and it won't be so scary. So, you know, it was kind of like throwing yourself into a situation so that you kind of desensitize a little bit around it. But it is scary, and I think it's scary because there's this idea of being perfect around money, and we feel like, if we're not at a certain place at a certain time in our life, that somehow we're just like this big failure. And, you know, I will say that through everyone I've worked with and through myself, I realized this is such a journey, just like your podcast, right? This is such a journey. This isn't like we arrive at this place and suddenly we never have fear or shame or judgment or guilt or avoidance around money. It's kind of this constant process, which, you know, I think is really unique, because our longest relationship besides ourselves is usually around money. So we kind of owe it to ourselves, to, you know, to try to have a better experience.

Jamila Souffrant 10:58

And because money is just so important, and it's like, so important, but so just annoying that it is so important. And I know it's like, you know, sometimes I get that feeling like, uh, it's like, made up, you could just print it. Sometimes it feels like money flows easily. Sometimes you're just like, why is it like, not flowing so I do think there's a lot like for people like, we know that we all need it, but we don't really talk about it. Or people just kind of want to live the life they want to live, but then that you need money to do that.

Shannah Game 11:28

And there's such this, like dopamine hit right with spending money that it's infectious. I mean, I share this often. I love dessert, like cupcakes are, you know, my favorite thing in the world, and if there are some in my house, I have a really hard time not eating them all. And so for a lot of us, spending money is the same thing. We might have a bad day, or we might feel bad about ourselves, like even if we've set up a goal of trying to pay off debt or trying to buy a house or any any, anything, and it's almost like we self sabotage because we just need like that to buy something, to just feel a little bit better about ourselves. And so I think that's where, like the feelings, the trauma, the beliefs, the emotions, like all of that, gets so messy. And you know, it was interesting. I was working with someone. I was money coaching, and he said, you know, he's super analytical. And he was like, you know, the problem is, I always move my goal post so I could set up, you know, this framework for how I want to interact with money, but then I get to change it. And, you know, that's why budgets fail for people, right? Because you can just change it however you want. So we have to then think about, okay, the emotion, how can I attach something to that that's gonna keep me focused, that's gonna keep me, you know, wanting to progress towards whatever goal I'm trying to achieve. So it's just, it's really tricky and fascinating to unravel.

Jamila Souffrant 13:00

You talk about four money personality types in your book. I would love to like, just go over that, if you can explain what they are, and then let's see if we can, like, if I can find myself one of the money types. Yeah,

Shannah Game 13:13

the first one is called the nightingale, and this is my husband's money personality. And this is a person who is just generally nervous around money, like anything. Makes them just like, you know, they're just kind of in this chronic like, fight or flight around money. Now, the good side of a nightingale is they tend to be pretty detail oriented. I'm more like a lion, and a lion is like, a Go big or go home right, swinging for the fences type person, and somebody who is probably not so good with the little details, like may overlook certain things just because they have this, like, grand vision of of what they want to do. And they're they're more risk takers when it comes to money. And then we have the turtle, which, just like it sounds, this is a person who is slow and steady. They don't like a lot of risk. They may not, you know, transfer any money in their investment portfolio outside of, like, the money market account, like they're just really conservative with decisions, and they just want to have a sense of security. And obviously this type is really great, because we need that balance with our money. But you know, the downside is that obviously we've got to take some risk in order to grow, you know, past our savings accounts. And then we have the wolf, the last one. And the wolf is someone who is like, so focused on goals, like by age, you know, 40, I should have this amount of money saved. But the downfall of the wolf is that they can be overly analytical, so they can get stuck in kind of like the analysis paralysis of. Of, well, I could do this, or I could invest in that, or I could, is it this fund or that fund, or this or that, you know, and they can kind of spin their wheels and not actually make any progress, but the woof is more or less a combination, kind of of all the different types, definitely with some blind spots there. Okay,

Jamila Souffrant 15:20

so you said you were more like a lion, yes, yes. And your husband's like a nightingale. So I feel like I'd maybe be a lion, but I don't like so that's like more You said they you see the big picture, little things might get lost. Because, I mean, that's sometimes how I feel. Like I won't necessarily, especially at this stage of my journey, worry too much about the little things like that the bigger picture, as long as I'm reaching the big goals, or the bigger picture, like I'm fine. So some things for me, my imperfection, or where I feel like I am not perfect when it comes to money, is because the smaller things that take up too much time for me, I'm not going to obsess about versus I know a lot of people in my audience. I remember I was running one of my groups, my coaching program that I actually am running again now, and some of the people inside the group, like they're very they would be the wolf maybe, like they were, like, looking at all the numbers of their budget, and that's what I teach people to do when they first start. Just like, even you women trying to get things together. And then, you know, I was telling them, well, I don't like, I don't even do that, but that works for my personality type. And like, they were so surprised. And I just thought, like, and I think the issue with some people is maybe you have to be one way, when maybe we can talk about that, like, is there a way, if you are one of these, if someone listened and said, I think I'm more like a nightingale, but they feel stuck in that, is there? Do you work within your Nightingale personality, or do you change and try to adopt other personalities within the money trait to go forward, because sometimes it depending on where you're on the journey, it does pay to be very detailed oriented. But then as you get further along, you can kind of fall back to All right. My original personality type is someone who doesn't care about that. So I can, like, be more loose. I

Shannah Game 16:57

love that question. And what I tell people is, whatever type you are, you're gonna have strengths. So I think really first sitting down and thinking about, what are my strengths when it comes to money, like, what do I do really well, maybe, what do people compliment you on, or what do you feel really comfortable in doing? But then we also look at like, where are the blind spots? So where are the things that maybe make you nervous, that you're not as comfortable, or maybe you don't know enough about so there is some kind of stress or fear? So we're looking at both things right, and we're trying to figure out, like, how do we play to these strengths? Like, how do we really maximize these strengths, and how do maybe we borrow some of the strengths from the other personalities to help with some of these blind spots. And blind spots are not a bad thing. We all need them right to sort of function as human beings. But when we're looking at money, it's it is, I think sometimes about saying, Okay, I'm this personality type, but in order to change my situation, I've got to get back to the basics around money, right? So you talk about teaching people to, you know, look at how they're spending money. I mean, that is a super important thing, no matter what type you are, and then depending on if you're the person who's maybe more big picture, once you know the numbers, and you're spending, and you've created a sort of value based spending plan, and you're directing your money and automating it, yeah, maybe you don't have to spend time looking on it right? And if you are the personality type that loves the details, and you're in the details, okay, how do we get you to be good with the details? But also think a little bit more big picture, like maybe managing, you know, financial risks, or thinking about retirement or things like that. So I think it's this balance, no matter what personality you are, of really analyzing, okay, these are my strengths. These are my a little bit of my blind spots. How do I balance those out so I can help myself get to the place that I want to be. And also, what's really great is if you find a friend or a partner or somebody who's a little bit different, and you can start having these money, open money, conversations with them without judgment, they can often their strength is one of your blind spots, right? And you can kind of borrow from each other to be able to help each other, you know, progress forward.

Jamila Souffrant 19:26

It also sounds like acceptance. I'm glad you brought out the partner and like, even with friendships, but especially if you're partnered with someone and they're have a different personality type working together on that. And it just seems like acceptance. I think of yourself and flaws and blind spots is important, and giving yourself grace for that, but then acceptance of your partners blind spots and faults and maybe difference of opinions is going to be important too, to come to a place where you can work together,

Shannah Game 19:54

absolutely. Because the thing with with couples and partners is we do. Really understand our own money story and our beliefs and blocks. So then we look at our partner, and let's say they spend money on something that we think is crazy, the first reaction usually is from a place of being defensive or judgment or something like that. But when we can talk about these things, like, you know, our money personality type and our stories and beliefs, maybe we brought from childhood, and we could talk about it in more of a curious way, in less of a judgmental way. Then I think you actually can create more intimacy in the relationship, because you can see each other as two totally different people, and then the conversation is okay. You have these strings. I have these strengths. How do we marry them together? Put them together so that, you know, we can become like a, you know, more of a power, helping us get closer to our money goals versus, you know, just constantly bickering about this stuff we don't like about each other.

Jamila Souffrant 21:01

Hi, Jamila, here, host of this podcast and author of the book, your journey to financial freedom, a step by step guide to achieving wealth and happiness. Just a few years ago, I was in a job I didn't like, with a long commute, feeling stuck. I knew there had to be a different, better way then I found the pathway to financial freedom and financial independence. Today, I have more money options and freedom than I ever thought was possible. And in my book your journey to financial freedom, I'll show you how you can achieve that too. You'll learn how to spend and save responsibly, all while enjoying that spicy Margarita and exercise of guacamole to determine where you are on the journey, and evaluate your spending and saving goals accordingly. Quit your job, retire early or reach financial independence. My book your journey to financial freedom, a step by step guide to achieving wealth and happiness, is out now and available on Amazon bookshop.org, Barnes and Nobles and more. You can leave and listen to the audiobook, narrated by me, go to your journey to financial freedom.com. To get a free bonus when you order the book and see all the places to buy it once again, go to your journey to financial freedom.com. A lot of the book talks about the barriers and like that kind of the hidden things that are preventing us and but how do we uncover what that is? Like? I know, you know, there's you can do therapy, there's forms of things you can do, but, like, let's just say, if someone's not ready to go outward, but they need to, like, kind of sit they're listening to this podcast, and, like, all right, I know there's some things going on with me. I just don't know what it is, or I know what it is, I just don't want to confront it. How does one get started? To start to uncover what those traumas are for themselves around money and where they started from.

Shannah Game 22:48

I think the first place to start is to bring sort of awareness to what is happening in your body and your mind around certain things with money. So whether it's when you look at your bank account or when your paycheck comes in, or maybe when you're around your partner or friends are talking about money, if you start to notice sort of somatic experiences. Those are bodily experiences, like maybe your hands start getting sweaty, or your heart starts racing, or your shoulders get tense, or like you start notice something uncomfortable happening in your body that is kind of like the alarm bell going off of, okay, there's something here, whether it's trauma or, you know, for a lot of people, like they get really nervous, right when they look at their bank account. And I had a client who who forgot to pay a bill, and she then, you know, had her credit score down, and she'd never forgotten to pay a bill in her entire life, but that one experience made her feel a traumatic response every time she looked at her bank account, right? And so we had to do some, some kind of deconditioning around that of look, you have made all of these super responsible choices with your money over your life. You just made this one little blip, right? So we need to start focusing on the good stuff that you are good with money, that you do make these good decisions. So the first thing is just awareness. Like, am I feeling like? What am I feeling around money and different people and circumstances. And when you notice something go okay, rather than judge yourself, I want you to start thinking about okay. Where might this come from? Is this like? Is this from a past, like childhood, belief or experience? Is this something recent? Is that am I feeling a comparison with someone is somebody judging me, like what is happening, and see how far you can kind of dig down and again, this is personal work. If you're somebody who loves journaling, this is a great thing where you can just kind of jot down check my account balance today. Felt super uneasy trying to figure out where this is coming from. Right? So start to become like almost a detective in your own experience. And you know, whatever works for you, if you're like journaling, that's great. There's an exercise I suggest called financial forgiveness, where I want you to set the clock on your phone for five minutes, 15 minutes, whatever feels comfortable for you. And without thinking this is like a brain dump, I want you to just get out every thought around money, every emotion, everything that you think you did well, that you think you didn't do well, step away from it for 24 hours, come back to it, and then I want you to get rid of it, shred it, burn it, throw it away, cut it up, whatever feels good to you, but there is actually scientific proof behind writing something down and then getting rid of that piece of paper. So there are lots of exercises like that that you can do to try and unlodge some of this stuff. And then the last thing I will say is that, you know, we have these kind of constructs around money, like debt is bad, and if I forgot to pay my bill, or my credit score isn't so good, or I'm not making as much as I should, like, we tend to put those in the bad box. But the kicker is, like, you can decide what is good and bad, so you can actually remove that, like for debt, you could say, Yeah, I don't like my debt. I'm working to pay this off, but right now, my debt has put me through school or paid for my childcare or put a roof over my head. So I'm gonna choose not to vilify myself for having that experience, right? So that's kind of the last thing I wanna share. Is just we get to decide the meanings to some of these things.

Jamila Souffrant 26:41

I love that. I love rewriting kind of what that means, like what the thing means, because it's perception and who is looking at it, and why we're looking at it that way. A lot of that is also, like taught to us. It's societal. And yes, it probably someone is in a lot of debt. It may not feel good, doesn't feel good so but the reason why maybe was necessary. Sometimes it wasn't necessary, but maybe you had fun. Maybe you did enjoy, yeah, the piece of clothing or the bag, or whatever it was that you were you got in debt for maybe you didn't. I think what maybe can happen sometimes for people is that there's this expectation, like with debt, that you know, you should feel bad about it, and then maybe what happens for some people is like they actually enjoy, you know, like dopamine, dopamine hit of buying something and enjoying the thing itself does feel good, but then it puts them in, you know, just a bad situation, puts them more in the hole where it's harder for them to reach their financial goals, but then in the moment, it feels good. So I think there's a lot of that masking going on, and it is, like, maybe confusing for some people on, you know, in the long term, this is not helpful, but in the short term, it feels good. And that's a lot of people trying to escape from reality right now. And so that's like, what they're doing to help cope with that. Yeah.

Shannah Game 27:59

And certainly, like, I always tell people, I don't want you to aim for 100% with any of this. I want you to think about, like, even a 6040, split. Like sometimes you're gonna want that, or need that dopamine hit of buying something and give yourself permission to do that, but maybe some of the other times you do something like I talk about in the book, like a 24 hour spending pause, where I put everything in my online shopping cart, and then I walk away, and then I come back, and from a different brain perspective, I can decide, Okay, do I actually really need this? A lot of times I end up either getting rid of the entire cart, or, like, getting rid of, you know, 90% of the things that I just irrationally needed to put in there. But when you do something like that, you still get the dopamine hit of putting everything in the cart, but then you bring like, the intentionality piece of, okay, now let me decide what I actually really need. But I, you know, a lot of times, you know, people build emergency funds, and the they're so fearful of spending that money, you know? And I'm like, Well, you built that for a purpose, like it's there for you to spend it. That's the purpose, the definition. So I think a lot of times, if you build into your spending plan some sort of fund that is your fun fund, your whatever you want to call it, I don't even care. My I need a dopamine hit fund. It doesn't matter. And give yourself, like, guilt free permission to spend from that account. It helps with this, like, intense dopamine need, because you've already told yourself, hey, I can spend whatever in this account, and I don't have to feel guilty about it. And it starts to change how you interact with money. And I think it starts to change your relationship with money. And you

Jamila Souffrant 29:42

brought up a good point about, like, the emergency fund, and it not, not wanting to spend, if you if you have been able to build one up, even though this is what it's for. You know, it's for that emergency that just came up, or maybe a loss of income. But it's still, I know, for me, I don't feel good when I have to dip into. My emergency fund, even that's the purpose of it. I know a lot of people feel that way too, because it's like, well, now I have to replenish it, or what if something bad keeps happening and then it goes to zero? So there is that thought. And so that's why, when you talked about earlier working with different types of people with different income, how even for them, you know, they may have, let's just say, a million dollars in an emergency fund or some kind of account, and they still won't think that's enough, depending on their expenses. It may not be 1,000% but people would think, well, if I had that much, I wouldn't be nervous, but it's like, you might be still, yeah,

Shannah Game 30:30

it's this whole like conversation, right about, like, happiness and money. And there's a study that came out a few years ago that I think it's $72,000 like after we hit $72,000 every amount over that incrementally does not provide us with more happiness, which sounds crazy to a lot of people, because they're thinking, well, if I had more money, I mean, I, you know, I'd be able to pay all my bills, and I would be able to I would be so happy. But you know, the reality when they actually do these studies of people is at all different income levels, people feel unhappy, or they feel lost, or they feel like they don't have enough. That's the one thing I hear from women all the time, is I'll never have enough, or I don't feel like I have enough. And so, you know, I like to think about, if you're someone who's resonating with that, take a step back. And I want you to think about, what does enough look like for you? Can you actually visualize that? Draw it out, I don't care, write it out, because until you know what that looks like for yourself, you're never going to get there. And so it's never going to be enough. So start embodying, like some of these practices where you get to actually decide what this means for yourself. And yeah, obviously things like emergency fund, nobody wants to spend it down, right? But it's there. And if we need it, we gotta use it and trust ourselves, trust ourselves with money that we can build it back up and get back to the place where, when we need it again, it's there for us.

Jamila Souffrant 32:04

Dan, I just want to add like, when I even start to spiral about, like, is there enough? Or what are we going to do? That's why I think a plan is important, because our emotions, right? Like, this is a powerful thing. Our mind, our emotions that like, will live within us. Can go anywhere. Can you know, think of the worst case scenarios, but if you have already maybe thought through, okay, what does the worst case scenario look like, and how long will it take me to be able to, maybe, without, with a loss of income or worst case scenario, survive this thing, and what are the steps I'm going to take if this happens? So I like to, like, create a plan like that for myself and family that shows like, Okay, who knows with the world we're in today, but for the most part, you have enough assets, and you have enough within yourself as an asset to figure things out and to hopefully help your family when needed. And so I think just understanding that, looking at the numbers, confronting things are important, because if you don't know, then yes, everything's gonna feel like the end of the world and that you don't have enough. But it's important to have that plan in place so that you can check your emotions when they start spiraling.

Shannah Game 33:14

I love that you talk about yourself as an asset too, because I think especially as women, we tend to downplay that, or we're not even thinking of ourselves as an asset, but we are. And reminding yourself that you can make good choices and that you do make good choices around money is really important, because there's such that narrative out that, you know, I'm just bad with money, that I'm just I'm terrible with money. I'm not even going to try budgeting doesn't work for me. I'm a lost cause. It's too late. I'm too old. Like, whatever. We can throw all of the different things out there, but reminding myself, like, yeah, I paid this bill today. That's, that's a good thing, like, I am with good with money. I, you know, whatever it might be, it's, it's like giving yourself your own kind of cheering section and a pep talk and reminding that you are an asset, that you can learn more. You can find people to help you. There are so many different resources out there now to learn. I mean, when I was 20 years old, we didn't have any of this available. Now we can learn about all these different things, investing and growing our wealth and generational wealth and protecting our assets. And so I just want you to remind yourself that you are more powerful than you think, and you can learn and grow and change and build your finances back up when you need to,

Jamila Souffrant 34:38

for you and your journey, like your money journey and even career, because it's like, you know, closely intertwined. I think, right, like, you know what you're you're looking to do, and how much you work. I think it's just all interconnected. What is kind of like your journey in this like, where are you with your goals? And because I think it's nice to hear from. You know, people look at you like, Oh, she's like an expert. She has it all together. And I already know you said you have, you know, some still money hiccups. But what does your journey like? Your Money journey look like? Like? How are you looking to reach a place where you find what I talk about, financial independence, where you never have to work again? Or it's like working and making income to support your family, the goal and you love it, so you don't really have a retired date. I just think it's helpful for people to like, also relate to or hear what like the personal journey is for a lot of the experts that come on,

Shannah Game 35:31

I've got a real, like, interesting place in my life and my career. I've been, like I said, a money expert for over 20 years. I've been doing my podcast for 10 years, and I've been feeling the need to, I don't know, venture out, try something new, like shake things up, which is incredibly frightening, because that means, you know, dropping some things aside, and, you know, attempting to pick something else up. But I'm kind of the person where I feel like I don't I don't want to get to a point where I completely retire, because so much of who I am is I love creating things, I love ideas, I love helping women. I love business like I love all of that. I just want to be able to have the option of not doing that. So I think that's my, my big goal now, but there are so many things in life that I just want to play and explore and test out business wise, and, you know, financially. And so I think that's what makes me really excited. I used to get really nervous that I had to have it all plotted out that, you know, I needed this beautiful like, five year plan. And then I realized that a, I'm just not that type of person, and B, that anytime I would have created a five year plan, and any five year span, it would have been so different from what I wrote out, that in my life, I'm like, Okay, I'm learning how to just go with the flow. Have a plan. Try not to focus on perfection, because that's one of my downfalls. And looking at work from this different perspective of I want to find and do the things that I really love and that motivate me and really, you know, keep focused on knowing my worth and advocating for for what I'm worth and what I should be paid. But you know, I'd love to be the person who's like in their 80s, still having a business or doing something and feeling that, that kind of alive sensation every day, but on your own terms, right? Like, on my own terms? Yes. Asterik,

Jamila Souffrant 37:43

yes. I think, I think that's what like most, like everyone you know, would want. So I think just in general, it's like finding that thing you love and or can make money from. I was when you said you were doing this for you said 20 years, yes, and then having a podcast for 10 years. I'm like, Oh, don't you get tired of talking about money, because I feel like I'm at that point where it's not that it's well, it's not that it's not like, maybe it's kind of like you where it's just like, there are other things I want to explore, but if you have a skill set for something, and you know, you can earn a living from it and still reach your financial goals, and it's a kind of no brainer to do it, but I think there's a lot of people who they're In a lane that's comfortable or that they've been doing for a while, but there are other things they want to do, but they have to figure out a way to make money from those other things in order to sustain their expenses and their lifestyle. I think,

Shannah Game 38:30

though, you know, the older I get, the more I embrace that as an exciting part of life versus something that is terrifying and scary. You know, when I when I think about money, and the way I talk about money, it's from this perspective of building what I call Healthy wealth. So this is looking at all areas of your life and defining what wealth means in those areas. And that's all going to be completely different. And then, you know, curating a life around that. I mean, money touches everything. So it'd be, you know, impossible to ignore talking about money. But I think that, you know, sometimes we get so pigeon holed in what we do as a career, and there are other talents and abilities that we can explore. And, you know, I've really just been paying attention to, like, what other people reflect back to me and like, Oh, you're really good at this, or oh, you should try that. And I'm like, okay, maybe I should listen to them, because this whole, even this whole 10 year podcast journey was just a complete like deciding on a Friday night and starting a show and not even knowing that this was even remotely possible to make a career and earn an income out of so when I think about from that perspective, I'm like, Okay, well, maybe some of the things I want to try aren't quite so crazy, either,

Jamila Souffrant 39:50

right? They're not that out of reach, or someone out there doing something like, you know, creating a lane out of two separate lanes, you know, like merging and. Creating and forging a path that you can too. But Shawna, I'd love for you to tell people more about the book, where they can get it and where they can follow and find out more about you too. Yeah,

Shannah Game 40:10

my book is called unraveling your relationship with money, and it goes way deeper into my personal story and other people's stories, all different age, all different income. There's journal prompts, there's fun money, truth or dares in each chapter. So it's really a different experience around money. And you can find that absolutely everywhere you buy books. You can also head to my website, everyone's talking money.com/book, and I have some fun pre order bonuses available to you. And you can listen to my podcast. Everyone's talking money. We have over 1300 episodes wherever you're listening to this podcast. Now,

Jamila Souffrant 40:47

got it and so we will link all of that in the episode show notes. Shawna, thank you so much again for coming on the podcast. Thanks for having me. Don't forget you can get the episode show notes for this episode by going to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening to this, and you can still grab your jumpstart guide for free to help you on your journey to financial freedom by going to journey to launch.com/jumpstart

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