Episode 408: Frugality as a Superpower: Aligning Money with Your Values with Jen Smith & Jill Sirianni

Jen Smith 0:02

We are conditioned to say wanting is bad. You should only spend money on things you need, and if you want something you can't afford it, you're irresponsible with money. And the truth is that that causes us to overspend because we don't stop spending because some affluent person on a podcast or radio show tells us we should. We just rationalize it in a different way, that it becomes a need, and then when we do spend money on things we want, we feel guilty. T minus 10

Jamila Souffrant 0:33

seconds, welcome to the journey. To launch podcast with your host, Jamila Souffrant as a money expert who walks her talk. She helps brave journeyers like you, get out of debt, save, invest and build real wealth. Join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom in 54321,

if you want the episode show notes for this episode, go to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening to this episode in the show notes, you'll get the transcribed version of the conversation, the links that we mentioned and so much more. Also, whether you are an OG journeyer or brand new to the podcast. I've created a free jump start guide to help you on your financial freedom journey. It includes the top episodes to listen to, stages to go through, to reach financial freedom resources and so much more you can go to journey, to launch.com/jump start, to get your guide right now. Okay, let's hop into the episode. Hey, journeyers, welcome to the journey to launch podcast today I have on Jen Smith and Jill siriani, their co host of the top rated frugal friends podcast. They have over 400 episodes and 7 million downloads. Jen, you've been on the podcast before I looked it up. Of course, I just forgot the number, but I'm gonna put in the episode show notes so people can check back there. But you guys talk all about frugality, but making frugality cool, making it a superpower that we can use towards our journey. So financial freedom. Jen Smith is a personal finance expert who, along with her husband, paid off $78,000 worth of debt while facing unemployment and buying a house. We did talk about that in that journey to launch episode that I'll link in the show notes. And Jill is a licensed clinical social worker who enjoys exploring the connections between our money behaviors and mental health. They are now authors of the brand new book, buy what you love without going broke, and I'm happy to have them on the podcast. So welcome.

Jen Smith 2:41

Thanks for having us. Yeah? So excited to be here, Jamila. I just love getting to chat with you. Yeah?

Jamila Souffrant 2:47

So listen, we're talking about the F word. As my kids will say, I think I have my kids trained really well, because some words that are not curse words, they'll be like, That's the D word. I'm like, sure, whatever. But I'm like, Yes, keep up the censorship. But I think the F word in certain aspects, I think is embraced if you are into it already and can be disciplined the frugality word. But for a lot of people, this is hard. This is something they don't want to hear. They want to live their lives. And so thinking about frugality feels like restriction. So I want to dive into that, because I know your book talks at all about like how to break that down and how to enjoy being frugal or value spending. So let's kind of start with why frugality should not be seen as a negative but a positive.

Jen Smith 3:34

Yeah, I think more people would want to identify themselves as frugal if a they felt it was attainable, because a lot of times we see frugality as something that really only affluent people can even use, you know, like you have to have money to buy the nice quality, so that you save money in the long run, right? And then also, if it was seen as a good time, it's usually also associated with wanting less and deprivation, and so we truly believe that frugality isn't about wanting less, but wanting different and really wanting the things and embracing that want that you can want things but learning about yourself and learning that you deserve the big things in life, not just the small things that marketers are trying to sell you, to make you forget about the big things that seem too far out of your reach. We

Jill Sirianni 4:33

are on a mission to kind of redefine frugality, make it a lot more fun, make it a lot more attainable, like Jen said, and really have it be more informed, intentional, conscious consumption decisions that we're making about the ways in which we interact with money as a resource, and not just about how much can I get for as little as possible, but rather, how can what kind of life. Do I even want to be living and leading? And how can my decisions, including my money decisions, help me get to some of those deeper things? You know

Jamila Souffrant 5:08

what? That actually brings me back a little bit to define frugal, so using it as a adjective or even a verb, I guess, right, like maybe it's more of a verb. You tell me, but tell me what the word frugal actually means, because you just actually debunked something that it's not about wanting less, but different. But what does if you had to describe what most people think frugal is, versus how you are describing it? What would you say? I

Jill Sirianni 5:34

think most people associate being frugal with being cheap, just the pinching pennies, the washing out plastic bags, but we define frugality as being good stewards of all of our resources. So that includes money time, our mental resources, our relational capacities, our physical spaces, our natural resources, all of this we make decisions with every day, at least every year, certainly, and so being more mindful and intentional about all of these decisions and the ways that we can leverage them to benefit us.

Jen Smith 6:09

Yeah, it's not just about money. To say that it's not about money is a lie. To say it's all about money is also a lie. But it's not just about money. It's about all these other limited resources as well. I really

Jamila Souffrant 6:20

love the term being good stewards of your resources in general. And we can talk a little bit about your backgrounds and growing up, and how that maybe impacts how you've grown to embrace frugality. Because, like, in what the way I think about it, I think definitely in certain communities or from certain backgrounds, when you were forced to be frugal, when there was not a choice, because, like, frugality or being good stewards of your resources, was there was no other option. And so when you grow up in an environment like that, you can take some of that on and use it to help you, or I think it can hold you back, because then you're not living life the way you want to you being not just frugal, but cheap with everything. And I think for like, especially, I would speak just for me, growing up and coming from an immigrant background, when I told people that I was pursuing financial independence and I was more frugal the idea or not the pushback, but it was like, why would you want like your mother and the people that came before you had to be frugal like that was what they had to do. And now you're in this position where you have more money, you have resources, and you want to live like that still. And I'm not saying that I had to live as what my mom grew like, living up with no running water sometimes, but it's almost just like, why would you choose that if you had an option? And so I think that also plays into marketing, plays into our just insecurities as we are adults with our own money now, well, I deserve this. I want to live a better life. Isn't this what my parents worked hard for? And so I think there's a lot happening with what I just said, but I think there's sometimes that internal battle with spending money versus saving it based on your background, based on where you come from, or how your family dealt with money. What do you think about

Jen Smith 8:05

that? Absolutely, yeah, I see this like a lot with my own life. Just like my parents, they never had debt, but because of that, they never spent a lot of money. We didn't have a lot of money to spend while my other friends, their parents were going into debt, but they had all these cool things, right? So I in adulthood, I think, like I deserve these little treats, if the day is hard, if I just get through the day, like I deserve all these things. And there's a part of financial education that says, No, you don't deserve anything. But in our hearts, like I'm a good person, like, yes, of course, I deserve something. You only get one life. And so I think the disconnect is we think we deserve so much less than we actually do. We're marketed to every day with these products and services and solutions to fulfill these needs in our lives that are very small and we can afford them, and so we treat ourselves to these small things, because the big things that we truly deserve, the things money can't buy but require more money to be able to invest in, those seem further away, and we don't feel like we deserve those. So we justify it by saying, Well, I don't need financial independence. I I'm happy just with my small, little day to day treats. That's fine with me. I'm doing better than my parents, so it's good enough. And I think we really sell ourselves short. It's almost

Jamila Souffrant 9:41

like placating, putting that band aid on something that bigger wound, trying to fill that void that won't be filled by all these smaller things.

Jen Smith 9:50

Yeah, and in pursuing financial independence and realizing like I deserve, not just the dinners that. Out and the little treats like, Yes, I deserve those. But what I deserve more is the opportunity to be super present with my family, my children, my friends. And those are the things financial independence can provide me, and I truly deserve that. So I want, I want that so much that I'll forego some of these other smaller things from time to time to be able to pursue that faster.

Jill Sirianni 10:28

And it's not just about deprivation. I think that's that's kind of a bit what you were describing with your parents and your background, and kind of, why would you choose these things? And I think that's the the previous understanding of frugality that you're just going to choose to deprive yourself, to try and train yourself to want less for some unknown reason, I don't know, I just shouldn't be spending more. But in reality, and this is kind of where I I've come from, too, to some degree, on that spectrum, growing up with not a lot. There was a time that I was on food stamps as a kid, and my grandmother introduced me to the thrift store, and I didn't love it at first, but I became a person who recognized this is how I'm going to clothe myself, especially in young adulthood, and we're living off of a social work salary. A lot of my entry into frugality, or my lifestyle of frugality, was out of necessity, but then discovering that as I then earned more and had more resources available, and was gaining knowledge on how to even engage in some of these, these resources money, and beyond that, it then still became, well, what decisions do I make with this? Sometimes they were flippant decisions, like, I'm just accustomed to going to the thrift store and digging through stuff, because I just love a good deal. But then to realize, yeah, but I can't just keep collecting good deals. This is creating dust that now I have to clean and I have to fix or replace, and do I even want all of this stuff? And why am I getting all of these things? And so some of the decisions and the behaviors that have been created through frugality, while some of the mindset did need to shift for me in my understanding of it, there are still tenants that are present that I think are helpful for all of us, regardless of our level of income or amount of access to resource, because so much of what we're describing here is about creativity. It's about understanding our values and aligning our spending decisions and our lifestyle decisions with those things. It's about self understanding and not just falling victim or being manipulated by the marketing tactics that are telling us you need this thing. And actually, this is how you're going to achieve connection. This is how you're going to achieve self esteem, by buying this thing, by looking this way, by having the best skincare products. And unless we pause and ask ourselves, is that true? First of all, am I actually experiencing these things that they're promising me, and do I even want these things, or are there other ways to meet some of these higher level needs and things that are actually important to me, like like Jen was describing, we call them the four Fs of faith, family, friends and fulfilling work, that for all of us, we share these in common, that these are the things that that we really need and want and desire and create for us self fulfillment and self actualization. And so often our spending is to get at these things, whether we know it or not, whether we're conscious or it's more subconscious, but a lot of times we spend to actually try to experience connection, to fill up our self esteem buckets, to make us feel like we've accomplished something, or we're smart, or we're good, or we are enough. And in reality, they fall flat. They miss the mark, because we're not actually digging into time with our friends, our people, our family, finding the fulfilling work, engaging in the spiritual practices that are meaningful for us. So it's not as if we're talking about never, ever spending money, but it's shifting the question from how much can I spend to how do I get more of what I truly value and then fill in the gaps from there with my spending? How

Jamila Souffrant 14:30

would you suggest one starts that process if they know that they need to change or do something different? And the reason why I think someone would know that maybe is because they're unhappy currently with their situation, or they realize there's a goal, or they know they need to set a goal. But how would one even know where to start to get this process going?

Jen Smith 14:52

Well, not with a budget and not with like, a list of corporate values that are like that, integrity and courage and. All of that. That's where we started. That's where we started, right? I know that's where everyone was telling us to start, and that's where we met the dead end. And so what we realize is that in order to plan future spending, you have to first look back at past spending, and that's going to show you what you're valuing in what capacity, and then also maybe some of the deficiencies that are triggering spending that you don't like. And so we say usually, start with a 90 day transaction inventory, get all your transactions, discretionary, fixed, whatever, all in a spreadsheet, and look through it and look for patterns. And if you're having trouble seeing patterns, initially, sort the spreadsheet in different ways by, you know, chronologically or alphabetically, by like store and just look for these patterns. If it helps. You can think of the habit loop from atomic habits. We're looking for cues preceding event. People that you're with, location that you're at, that are triggering some of these spending transactions, and then thinking about, Okay, what was I getting at? Like, what do I think that the deeper need is that I'm trying to meet by having this habit of purchasing something to solve the problem. So I like to tell the story of our friend, Paige, who she graduated college, got a new job. And as she started this new job, on her lunch break, she started going to the mall to, like, upgrade her wardrobe, to get, you know, big girl, big job wardrobe. And after a few months, she had the clothes she needed, but she actually realized she hated her job, like she was just, it was sales, a car dealership. She was not. It was not for her. So she just kept going to the ball every day on her lunch break. And a year in to this, she realized she had spent her entire salary, $60,000 on clothes, shoes, handbags, just all the things she gave them all she was living at home, eating at home, so she had literally spent her entire salary on stuff. And so she had to look back once she realized this had happened. She looked back at her spending, she didn't realize, she didn't connect that it was the job and the lunch break. She had to look back at her spending and realize, Oh my gosh, most of my spending is happening at the mall, and it's I'm going to the mall on my lunch break. Why am I going to the mall on my lunch break? Well, it's to escape this job because I don't like being there and I just want to get away for an hour. So she looks at these triggers, and obviously the biggest one is the job. So she starts to work to get a new job, but it doesn't come overnight. So she looks at the other trigger, which is time of day. What can I do that still meets my needs of getting out of this office, but doesn't cost me money, and so she starts bringing her lunch to work and taking it to the park. So she's still meeting the need. She's not depriving herself, like so many people say you need to do if you want to spend less. She is recognizing the needs, recognizing the root of the cue, of the trigger, and still trying to get at that, but in a different way. And she like, wraps up the story with this beautiful picture that I always think about. And she's like, one day I'm sitting at the park with my lunch, and like, sun is shining, tree is there? Birds are chirping. And she's just like, Why was I spending my time in a dingy mall to escape? Why did I think that was a good escape when this is like picturesque, perfect, and it comes back to that, like we think we deserve so much less than what we truly deserve, and

Jill Sirianni 18:59

we give ourselves the opportunity to get creative in solving our problems and meeting our needs and challenging ourselves to not buy our way out of our problems, we can come upon even more creative solutions that actually serve us better. So that, again, is debunking the whole deprivation piece of it. It's recognizing this actually meets my need more than me spending all of my money on clothing. And of course, that's not everybody's story, but it's an example of how when we interrupt a pattern of behavior or a habit that we have, we might even find something better on the other side. And

Jamila Souffrant 19:36

it's important too, because maybe if you're someone who kind of just goes with what's done, like you follow this habit that you've been doing, or the habits of other people, because you haven't been exposed to other things, and you don't have the perspective of the awareness to kind of look up from your path to say, Oh, wow, there's a park over there. This is something else I can do. It's hard to say, Wait, that's an option for me. So I. Think definitely, also hearing stories like that is important, because it makes you say, Hmm, I wonder what it's, what's in my life that I'm just doing to do, whereas, like, it's a norm for someone I know, or maybe I don't know, does that they go to the park, they even eat it in their car, you know? Yeah, or eat at their desk, which or eat with their co workers in the lunchroom, whatever that is, where they're avoiding that the other thing I thought about for people maybe to think through, because I know I make all I make bad money choices when I'm hungry. Yes, I don't care about anything. When I'm hungry, I'm going to eat. And so it's thinking ahead to that I think is a big thing for people, because that restaurant going out to eat Bill can add up, especially for your family, and a lot of it is, can be you need convenience and something quick, and that that's fine, I think, also too, recognizing the stage of life you're in, because, as you were talking, there are some points where, yes, I can prepare things in advance so that I'm not so hungry, or that my kids are not so hungry, but with a tight schedule and pickups here and there, sometimes that's just that's just not gonna be feasible. And so you know that about your life, it is that value based? Okay, if I'm gonna spend more money at this point of my life because of this situation, where else can I look to to maybe cut back or to be frugal in because this is more important, right? Like, I think that is going to take some thinking and looking at your your finances to do. Yeah,

Jill Sirianni 21:25

that's the importance of the fluidity here and the freedom and flexibility that we're describing with values based spending. It can be uncomfortable, because it's not a one size fits all, and it's not a check these five boxes, and then you're on the right path. There is a lot of internal work and self discovery and curiosity and question asking and identifying our patterns of behavior that needs to happen in order for us to be able to even begin to make any of these shifts or understand what we want our spending plan to look like, but that's a super crucial aspect of it. What you're describing is to look at yourself and the context in which you're operating within, and the certain kind of season of life as you're saying that, yeah, for a mom of young kids working a job, the realities are going to be a lot different from a single person with no children, and what is going to be available to them, and where the priority is going to be for their money. And so holding some of this with an open hand and being able to re evaluate as life changes and shifts, what are my priorities at this stage? How can I get more of the four F's, and in what ways can my spending help to support that? And so what you're describing with food can very well be I am actually going to factor in some takeout. I'm going to factor in some convenience, like pre chopped veggies or maybe even meal kit deliveries. I'm going to be intentional about it, though I'm going to have a plan and know how much I want to set aside for that and what it's going to provide for me on the other side of it, rather than some kind of arbitrary goal that we think we should or shouldn't be achieving. Well, this mom on Instagram creates beautifully plated food for all of her kids and her packed lunches are in awesome, perfect bento boxes, and that's just not everybody's reality, and I think we need to really start to embrace that. Part of that can come by also following the influencers who show the realities that maybe you are actually facing and experiencing, some of the unaesthetic situations that we might be living in can help bring us back down to reality and then create a spending plan that kind of matches with that. But it's not just about creating the perfect meal plan. It's about creating a realistic one, definitely knowing where your money's going and feeling good about it, but allowing yourself some of that flexibility for it to match the life season you're in.

Jamila Souffrant 24:07

Hi Jamila here, host of this podcast and author of the book, your journey to financial freedom, a step by step guide to achieving wealth and happiness. Just a few years ago, I was in a job I didn't like, with a long commute, feeling stuck. I knew there had to be a different, better way. Then I found the pathway to financial freedom and financial independence. Today, I have more money options and freedom than I ever thought was possible. And in my book your journey to financial freedom, I'll show you how you can achieve that too. You'll learn how to spend and save responsibly, all while enjoying that spicy Margarita and exercise of guacamole. Determine where you are on the journey and evaluate your spending and saving goals accordingly. Quit your job, retire early or reach financial independence. My book your journey to financial freedom, a step by step guide to achieving wealth and happiness is out. Out and available on Amazon bookshop.org, Barnes and Nobles and more. You can leave and listen to the audiobook, narrated by me. Go to your journey to financial freedom.com. To get a free bonus when you order the book and see all the places to buy it once again, go to your journey to financial freedom.com. How do you know, and I know this is a personal decision or a question for someone, but how do you know if you are overspending or under spending in an area that matters to you, and how do you know when it's time to underspend or to cut back because there's something more important, or when it's time to actually spend more like, how do you make that decision?

Jen Smith 25:43

So I am a big fan of The One Thing by Gary Keller and Jay poppinson, and essentially the whole book, summed up in one phrase is, what can I do now that which, by doing makes everything in the future, or a lot of things in the future easier or unnecessary, and so that is a really good filter for prioritizing what we spend on and don't spend on in a current season. And it's always good to reevaluate your seasons, your one thing I don't think should be like, you should have the same one thing for, like, multiple years. I don't know if that's healthy, but it's, again, very individual. So if there is something that you're trying to do, like a lot of people in the new year, paying off debt is a big thing. And that's a great goal, because that is something that when you pay off at least your high interest credit card debt, it's going to make everything else you want to do in life and financially so much easier. And then, like a lot of things unnecessary, there are so many side jobs you won't have to work. There is so many like spending decisions you won't have to make, because you'll have that freedom of income. So is a great one, but we also have to balance that with living and getting our values so making sure that you're looking at your internal needs and starting with the four F's. It's not just those four F's, like I think if we look on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, anything that falls outside of those can somehow be found on that hierarchy, but it's more of like an 8020 but we're looking to fill our cup with our biggest needs first, and then we're gonna, just as a natural result, we're gonna find ourselves impulse spending less. We're gonna find ourselves with more margin to put towards our goals, and we're going to find they're more sustainable because it doesn't feel like we're depriving ourselves. So looking at your goal in your season, making sure it's still relevant for your season, checking back in and and don't have competing goals, then I think that's a really good like filter to say, like, Okay, I am. I can spend more on this right now, or actually, this isn't as important as my debt payoff goal. I'm gonna, I'm gonna wait on this and maybe get it in a couple months. I

Jill Sirianni 28:13

think this question is also getting at defining hour enough actually tethering it to numbers. And we often talk about not wanting to start with math, but eventually math is going to have to come in, because we do exist within a reality, similar to needing to ask ourselves, is this actually what I want to spend on? We need to say, how much is actually coming in? How much am I actually earning that I can allocate to these different categories? Yeah, we can have one goal, but that doesn't mean that all of our spending is only on that one thing. Hopefully we're also being able to take vacations and buy food and make housing and transportation decisions, and, you know, other ancillary spending decisions as well. And so I think this was a really big game changer for me, to actually put numbers on paper. For me, it had a lot to do with, at the time, identifying how much is enough for an emergency fund, because after paying off our debt, that was the next step that I wanted to do was really beef up what I felt would be like a secure emergency fund. But what I found was that my marker for completion kept moving out and out and out, because after that, I said I'm gonna then go more heavily into investing. And I was scared to do that. It felt daunting. I didn't know much about it. There's a lot of mystery around it. And so to actually think through I could, I could always do this. I could always think the next bigger number is what I need, but really tethering it to something of for me, it became, what are my insurance deductibles? How much do I reasonably want set aside year over year for various house projects? How much do I reasonably want to spend for vacation? Every. Every year, and after that, I need to move on to the next thing of what's going to be best for my finances. So I think too we can identify and make these shifts as we kind of evaluate. I would recommend quarterly, if not annually. Where have I decided to put my money this past year, as far as spending and investing and saving, did that work? Well for me, what shifts do I need to make and be sure that it's tied to reality? Do I actually need this much money? How much did I spend in this last year? Can I start to pivot to the next thing?

Jamila Souffrant 30:37

And it sounds like, just based on our conversation, you don't view cheap and frugality as synonyms, correct?

Speaker 1 30:45

We don't use the C word at all. Yeah, we don't use the F word. We hate the C word. That's so

Jamila Souffrant 30:50

true. Okay, so I think within your world, and you know, I understand that too, but in the outside world, I like to say outside world, meeting people who are not into this, like they're not thinking about budgets or money. I hope you're still I hope you're listening. I hope you somehow found this episode and are open to these conversations, obviously, because you're here. But I think for most people, they do see it as a synonym, and they have people in their lives who are who they consider frugal or cheap, and they also see how like that cheapness or frugality in the way they look at it like leads to that person just like not enjoying their life being miserable. And then I've also seen it, especially in the personal finance space, because we kind of know each other for the most part. And now most of us have turned our interest in our own journeys to a business. And so in a business, it's definitely interesting, like to take the frugal mindset into a business, because, as you know, like you have to invest in things and want to spend in certain areas so that you can grow or to get things off your plate. So it's almost like a two parter. It's that cheap and being too frugal in a certain aspect, how that can be a detriment, and you can see it in someone's life when it's just like, dude, like, just spend the money you have it. Or, as you now are transitioning to wanting to grow so not even just being a business owner, but just someone who maybe needs to go back and get that class. Or, okay, the sneakers, like, are on their last like, you need new sneakers, and you can afford them. So maybe let's talk about how we don't want to be those people in our lives that are not spending the money we have to our detriment.

Jen Smith 32:31

Yeah. So for us, we define cheap as saving you save money at the expense of another resource. So whether it's your time, you're, you know, saving a little money, but it's costing you a lot of your time. Or it costs somebody else's time who's not being properly compensated or treated well, or it's costing natural resources in the earth that either can't be gotten back or will sit on the earth, and its space that will take forever to get back, or it's taking up your mental energy, your physical spaces, stuff like that. That is that's being cheap. You save money, but at the expense of another resource. And you can even say, you can say, spend, save and any resource at the expense of another resource, whereas frugality is true, good stewardship of it. So if you're spending money in a way that saves you money, like when I Thrift, I save I save money, and I'm secondhand stuff, I love that, and I can spend a little more and get really good quality secondhand stuff, and I don't expend any more natural resources, and I haven't. I've maybe spent a little bit more time, but it's not like a lot of time, so maybe I spend a little bit more in other resources, but it doesn't affect me, because I may, I enjoy thrifting and I value keeping stuff out of landfills so much that I joyfully invest that time so there comes like a shift in perspective when you value your resources very highly, your time, your physical space, not wanting it to get cluttered, your natural resources, When you really value those, then you truly want to steward them well, and that naturally leads to consuming less. It's just a natural byproduct. And so it's not uncool or depriving, it's just different.

Jill Sirianni 34:36

One of the things we've talked about, too with this concept, is holding the tension between the two extremes, kind of what you're describing on the one end of being really cheap and maybe exploiting resources so that you can save a penny, or on the total other end, where maybe frugality is as elevated as the this, you know, extreme to be lived up. Building race

Jen Smith 35:00

to the bottom? Yeah, I'm the best because I spend as little as possible, but

Jill Sirianni 35:04

finding the good qualities in both those extremes and living in the middle. So rather than repelling the one and going to the complete other side of things, or even repelling frugality altogether and living in a little bit more of a yeah, I've got the money, and I don't want to live like how these other people are living. And so I'm I'm diving in, and I'm not going to be worried about the future. And so we can find ourselves in either extremes. But rather, what is good about wanting to steward the resources decently and wanting to not pay, you know, full price for something. And what is also good about wanting to earn more and wanting to achieve the next thing there's there's positives and benefits to both. And I think we can kind of borrow from both sides and find that own individualized middle space where we are holding the tension between the two, and we're finding what works for us, and we're not saying extreme yeses or extreme nos to any of it, but really saying what is going to work for me here, and how does that align with the things that are most important to me and my priorities at this point. I

Jamila Souffrant 36:23

think the theme here, too is like reflection and self awareness is just a big part of this. It's, you know, none of this can be autopilot, and a lot of us have been on autopilot or have done things. And it's not that, it's some of it may just come more natural and easier to people. So I talk about this concept called guac levels in my book, where you know guac level five being the highest and the most fanciest expensive way to live your life or to want to spend in certain areas, versus guac level one being more frugal. And I do think some people are naturally more inclined to not want to spend in certain areas than other people. And so I think sometimes you being frugal in an area is not a permanent thing. It's in the meantime until you get somewhere. So if you know, you might think, okay, I my true life is living in guac level four or three, meaning, you know, I want to be able to go to a restaurant and not look at the price when I'm ordering like not order by price, but order by what I want. But in the meantime, because I have a goal, I am going to order by the price, because it is more practical for this stage of my life, but it's just temporary, because once I hit that goal, once I get to a certain level, I can kind of go back there. But I think what's interesting for people is using frugality, or this conscious way of spending, as a superpower. You realize that you can turn it on and off just because you are being more self aware doesn't mean it always has to be that way, but it means that you have the power to make informed decisions and be in more control, versus feeling like I can't control the spending or I'm just doing this because I'm getting these messages. It's like you actually are in control, and it makes you feel empowered once you realize that and can turn it on and off. Yeah,

Jen Smith 38:06

it's not a means to an end. It is a choice. And I think, like when you when you know what you need and value, and I just, I love talking. It's values are so like, such a broad idea, it can be very hard to when we say, like values based spending and spend on what you value. People are like that is so many things. But if you could just look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs and look at those basic needs, psychological needs and self fulfillment needs, if you can just focus in on there, like most of them are going to be found right there and like that can very much help you as a starting point to get anywhere you want to go and spending.

Jill Sirianni 38:50

And my version of frugality and my radical middle is that there are parts of me right now that live at guac level one and guac level. I don't know. I don't know if I'll say five, but at least, like a 3.8 maybe teetering on a four. Like recently, I've gotten into making my own dishwashing detergent and laundry detergent, and for some people, that sounds insane me and hit me, I probably won't make more dishwasher detergent, just not as good as the other stuff. So, you know, sometimes there's just like a frugal flop in that. So that's, that's quack level one. But I wanted to practice this creativity. I wanted to see if the ingredients I already had on hand could solve for a problem that I currently have, rather than running out to the store. And it turns out, some of that stuff, I just need to run out to the store for that

Jen Smith 39:46

Power Pods with the platinum that's the guac level five dishwasher detergent. That's where I live, too

Jill Sirianni 39:52

tempted to eat them. But then at the same point. During this particular season of life, I also just spent a lot of money to travel to Europe. And so there are some of these areas where I don't even know that I will desire to spend at guac level five in every area. There are some aspects where I truly discover that's just not important to me, that's an easy No, and I found these better yeses that I feel really good and confident and shame free about spending on. And it's not a lack of frugality. It is a true aligning with my values and stewarding in my estimation well for you know what, what I've earned, and I'm

Jen Smith 40:40

guac. Level two on eating out and traveling so that I can be guac. Level five on those platinum dishwasher pods, yeah. What do you say to someone

Jamila Souffrant 40:50

who was like, Well, I just want to be guac. Level four and five. Like, in everything. Like, now

Jen Smith 40:56

it's easy, because we live in extremes, right? We think I either am super frugal and I need nothing, I'm a minimalist, or I just want whatever I want. Nobody's gonna say I want everything, right, like I want level four or five on everything, but the things that we want, we're all gonna wanna be four or five on. But I think once you look, once you do that journey of self reflection, you really will discover there are more things that you're not that level on than there are things you are. And that's great. I think we are conditioned to say wanting is bad. You should only spend money on things you need, and if you want something you can't afford it, you're irresponsible with money. And the truth is, is that that causes us to overspend because we don't stop spending because some affluent person on a podcast or a radio show tells us we should we just rationalize it in a different way, that it becomes a need, and then when we do spend money on things we want, we feel guilty and we want to flip that. We want to sit like most of the things that you're going to buy on are going to be wants, right? You don't need 80% of the things that you you buy, and that's not negative, like it's good to want and it's good to want better. We just have to define what enough is so that we're not tricked into thinking somebody else is enough. Is our enough? We need to define that for ourselves.

Jamila Souffrant 42:27

Ooh, Mic drop. That was good. And I think this kind of leads into dopamine fasting. You kind of mentioned in your book. Can we talk? Talk about that a little bit? Because that's what we I love this idea, like wanting is not bad just because you want it. Does it make you like? If you want to like luxury car, nice things, that's fine to want it, to even purchase it if you can afford it and it fits into your value system and your goals. You are not saying feel bad because of that, but I think the dopamine rush that we all experience when we do get the things we want leads to that. So can we talk about that study that you mentioned in your book,

Jen Smith 43:02

absolutely so. So dopamine really does play a factor in how we spend money, but a lot of the times we think it's the actual act of shopping is what releases the dopamine, when really that's just what like ingrains it in our brain, the actual release of dopamine comes from the anticipation, and we know that because A study was done with I think it was monkeys, and they were trained to hit a bell, and every time on the 10th Bell, they got their treat, and they measured the dopamine spike, and you'd think it'd Be on the 10th ring, but it was on the ninth so they had this huge dopamine spike the closer they got to it, and then once they got the treat, the dopamine went down. But that's what it was ingrained in their brain to get more dopamine in anticipation of the treat, and that's what happens with shopping is that the anticipation, like while we're scrolling and we're shopping Amazon, that's what's giving us the dopamine once we get the product, that experience has been over. What we like to say once you've done a transaction inventory and you've looked at your past spending transaction, then you're ready to start changing your skills and your habits in real time. And you can do that with a dopamine fast and we like to do that with a good old fashioned no spend challenge, love them or hate them. It is a way for you to quote, unquote fast from spending. So non essential spending? Yes, you're still going to be spending on gas, essential food items, stuff like that, but it causes you it's this forced like stoppage of spending on discretionary items so that you can pause that anticipatory dopamine hit. And that ingraining, you know, dopamine tattoo that causes you to resort straight to shopping to get your dopamine hits. So we just want to reprogram those dopamine hits to be gotten from somewhere else, and we train our brains in that when we want something, it's not an opportunity to say you shouldn't want that. That's bad to want that. Why do I want so much stuff? We train our brains to get creative in how we meet those needs. Saying, Oh, I want that. Okay, what am I doing right now? Is that causing me to want this? Am I trying to meet a need? And we get creative. We get curious, with the root of why we're shopping, and it gives us that space. It cuts down on decision fatigue, so our brain actually has space to ask those questions, because so often I'm just, I've made so many decisions by the end of the day, I don't I don't have energy to ask questions about me. I just want to buy the Chipotle and go home and go to bed. So it really does give you that space to ask those questions, get creative. And in Dr Ann lemke's book dopamine nation, she did a lot of studies on her patients with varying addictions, and she would do dopamine fast with her patients that didn't have, like, very hard withdrawal symptom type addictions. And found that after two weeks, those were the two hardest weeks for her patients, and after four weeks, they were seeing starting of already retraining those dopamine receptors, they were already reprogramming, and they found the second two weeks to be much easier. So we find four weeks, 30 days is a very good length. We read about people that do year long year plus spending fast, but that's useful if you're learning how to not spend on something. We are learning how to spend, how to spend well and how to consume better. So really, four weeks or 30 days is a good time frame for that.

Jill Sirianni 47:12

It's like visiting this extreme to be able to learn about our spending behaviors and find alternatives, maybe even better alternatives to then find the radical middle. We're not going to live and camp out in this extreme, but we can visit it to find what do we want to take with us for the longer journey? Yeah,

Jamila Souffrant 47:31

I love that. Okay, so Jen and Jill, please tell us more about your book. Who should get it, what people are going to get from it, and then where they can buy it and find out more about you. So

Jill Sirianni 47:43

it's called buy what you love without going broke. You can purchase it anywhere you get books. Buy what you love book.com. Is a great spot to go to, and it is essentially what we're talking about here, A Guide to values based spending, teaching spending as a skill and really filling in those blanks on how to identify what do I value? How do I spend on that? Say no to the rest of it, and curate my environment to be able to support some of these behaviors that we've shifted for the longer term.

Jen Smith 48:15

Yeah. And if you've ever made a budget and said, this is a this is a budget I made, why can't I stick to it? Then this is the book. We wrote this book for you, because budgets are plans, spending plans, but plans cannot be executed without the skills necessary to complete them. Like I can make a physique plan at the gym, right? But if I don't know how to do a dead lift, or how to do a SWAT, or how to do any of that like I'm never getting there. I'm never gonna fulfill that plan. And so this is truly, I believe, the skill sets and sub skills necessary to be able to stick to a budget, and that's who we wrote this for. Love

Jamila Souffrant 48:57

all of this. All right? Jen and Jill, thank you so much for coming on the show, sharing your knowledge and letting us learn more about how to spend in a way and be good stewards of our resources.

Jen Smith 49:06

Thanks so much for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us. Jamila, don't

Jamila Souffrant 49:10

forget, you can get the episode show notes for this episode by going to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening to this. And you can still grab your jumpstart guide for free to help you on your journey to financial freedom by going to journey to launch.com/jump start. If you want to support me and the podcast and love the free content and information that you get here, here are four ways that you can support me in the show. One, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen, whether that's Apple podcast, that purple app on your phone, your Android device, YouTube, Spotify, wherever it is that you happen to listen, just subscribe so you are not missing an episode. And if you're happening to listen to this in Apple podcasts, rate review and subscribe there. I appreciate and read every single review. Number two, follow me on my social media accounts. I'm at journey to launch on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, and I love, love, love interacting with journeyers. There three, support and check out the sponsors of this show. If you hear something that interests you. Sponsors are the main ways we keep the podcast lights on here. So show them some love for supporting your girl four, and last but not least, share this episode, this podcast, with a friend or family member or co worker so that we can spread the message of Journey to launch. All right, that's it until next week. Keep on journeying. Journeyers. You

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