Episode 391: How to Balance Life, Health & Wealth with Stage 4 Cancer Survivor, Esther Hyun

Esther Hyun 0:02

Where you are at right now is not the same as where you were at before and where you'll be going. And so I think it's good to try to be self aware about what's important to you and also what's important to your spouse or your partner that you're living with, because it's not just about what you want, but it's what you want for the whole family and for each other. T minus

Jamila Souffrant 0:26

10 seconds, welcome to the journey to launch podcast with your host Jamila souffrant as a money expert who wants her talk she helps brave journeyers like you, get out of debt, save, invest and build real well, join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom. 54321,

hey, hey, hey, journeyers, welcome to the journey to launch podcast. I'm your host. Jamila souffrant, I hope you've been enjoying these episodes. I've been toying around in basically doing a summer rewind episode. So these were episodes that were previously aired on the podcast, but that were mentioned as case studies or references in my book, Your journey to financial freedom, we had episodes based on debt payoff, financial independence, and now I'm just going to sprinkle in some fan favorite episodes and some of my personal faves, so you're going to hear some of those episodes for the next couple weeks. I really hope you've been enjoying what you've been listening to. If you want to check out my book, which I hope you've already gotten, but if not, that's fine. You can pick it up now, head over to your journey to financial freedom.com. To see where you can find it. It's available everywhere, Amazon, Walmart, Target, Barnes and Noble, your local book store, basically everywhere. Head over to your journey to financial freedom.com to pick up the book now. Happy listening, and I hope you enjoy these episodes. If you want the episode show notes for this episode, go to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening to this episode. In the show notes, you'll get the transcribed version of the conversation, the links that we mentioned and so much more. Also, whether you are an OG journeyer or brand new to the podcast, I've created a free jump start guide to help you on your financial freedom journey. It includes the top episodes to listen to, stages to go through to reach financial freedom resources and so much more you can go to journey, to launch.com/jumpstart to get your guide right now. Okay, let's hop into the episode. Hey, hey, hey, journeyers, welcome to the journey to launch podcast. I am bringing to you a conversation that I was really excited to have today. I was, like, really looking forward to it, actually, at the gym this morning, and that is because I have Esther Hyun on the podcast. Esther is a young mom, a stage four colorectal cancer survivor, President and Board member of colon cancer stars and lawyer. She is the daughter of immigrants, the first person in her family to go to college and law school, and has been on the journey to financial independence for a little time. Now. We'll get into her story and Esther. And I just to give you guys a background. Why I was so excited to talk to Esther is because Esther reached out to me. She DM me on Instagram and just basically shared her like a bit of her story that she listened to the podcast and that she was a colon cancer survivor, and about just how listening to the podcast and getting her finances together helped her when she had to go through what she went through with cancer, what she is going through. And I was so touched. It wasn't even like you wanted to come on the podcast. You were just sharing it with me. And I remember, like, thinking about it and sitting with it for a bit, and it just reminded me about like, this work that I'm doing. Because sometimes it can feel, I always say this, like I'm just talking into the void. And are people out there? Is this helping? And I know it is, but when I get messages like that real people, it brings me back to the root of why I'm doing this. And so I was like, You know what? Esther like, come on the show. And you, you were like, all game, because I think you can share a lot and help a lot of people right now about preparing for what we don't even know is coming in our lives, and about just the financial independence journey. So I'm really excited, Esther, to have you on thank you for coming.

Esther Hyun 4:28

Thank you so much for having me. This is such a full circle moment for me, because I started listening to your podcast, especially when I started my financial independence journey, which was back in 2018 and I know when I messaged you, I shared a little bit my my story, which the reason why I loved your show so much is because I connected with you. A lot of things that you mentioned I kind of was going through so I was pregnant with my first kid. I was commuting over an hour over. I think it was over 70 miles each way to my job, and I know you had that similar experience where you were, you know, commuting long distance and questioning life, right? And now I'm here speaking with you. So this is so amazing to be here and share my story, and hopefully I'll be able to help someone who's going through something similar as me, yes,

Jamila Souffrant 5:23

yes, with that Esther. So I want to go back a bit. So you said you started listening or start to the podcast, or maybe started your financial independence journey in 2018

Esther Hyun 5:32

Yes, yes. So I guess I've always been on a financial journey. I just did a come across financial independence until I came across your podcast. So I started working when I was in high school, like sophomore, junior year, when I could legally start working. I started working. I've always been a saver. I opened my first credit card when I had my first job. I've never not paid my credit card in full. So I've always been very responsible with my money, but coming from a backup where my parents, they didn't go to college, they immigrated here, they did so well for themselves, but they didn't teach me about investing. They just said, you know, spend less then you earn, you know, pay your credit card off in full, but retirement, saving for retirement, that was not a conversation I really had with them. And if anything, I got the perception, not just from that, from other people, that investing was gambling. Because how do you choose what company to select? You don't have a crystal ball, right? And so I've seen people invest in the latest hot stock, and then it all goes to zero. And so me, I'm very logical. The reason why I became a lawyer is because I like to mitigate my risk as much as possible, and so I didn't know what to do with my money. I knew you should invest, and I knew about compound interest, but I'm like, What do I invest in? And so when I discovered you and the financial independence movement and about index funds, I feel like that really just was the catalyst to my future and my hopefully soon, retirement. Yeah, well, you

Jamila Souffrant 7:25

know what you're describing is what I also say in my book your journey to financial freedom, the like before awareness of financial independence. Because a lot of us are on the journey, whether we know it or not, not just a life journey, but just like a financial journey, your finances fuel the life you live. And so you can either be, you know, not aware of financial independence, like we were at some point, and then say, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And how can I get on board? And luckily, some of the things and foundations you had in place kind of put you at a maybe a further along starting point that some people who weren't maybe on top of their debt or savings. And so in that area, I find that people who have that kind of strong foundational like saving and or parents who taught them just like that mindset, even though investing wasn't a part of it, kind of start just a little bit ahead. Then maybe some people who didn't just have that foundation. So with that so 2018 when you did find it, where you went debt, where were you in your career, in your just personal life, in terms of responsibilities, when you started to, like, make changes, significant changes to your finances?

Esther Hyun 8:31

Yeah, so I had a mortgage on a home I had owned I had purchased before I got married. I had just gotten married that year, and I have student loan debt, like many of us and many lawyers, have very large debt. So right now, I'm actually debt free, except for my student loan. So I don't even have a mortgage because we live in the home my husband purchased before we got married. So I consider that his debt and not mine, since I'm not on it. But like I mentioned, I was always a saver, so I didn't have any other debt besides those two. I was putting money into my HSA, my 401, K, I wasn't investing in a brokerage account or anything like that, and I hadn't started really contribute to IRAs either. And at that point, I was like, What do I do with my money? I'm putting in it, but what do I do? And I remember one of the episodes I listened from your podcast was about HSAs and investing in them. And I was like, my mind was blown, because I didn't know you can invest your money for the HSA. I was spending it on contacts and reimbursing myself, and I didn't really need to, because I had savings. I could pay for my contacts just fine without touching my HSA. But no one told me, Oh, you can invest this money that's in your HSA. A and then I listened to your episode on that, and I was like, what? Like, this goes in tax free. I could spend it tax free. It grows tax free. Oh my gosh. Like, Why did no one tell this? And I remember, like, sharing it with one of my co workers, and she's like, Oh yeah, I knew that. I'm like, oh so it's just amazing how, like, you know, listening to your podcast, and just the resources out there, there's just so much information, you just have to go out and look for it.

Jamila Souffrant 10:32

I love that. So just for people who are listening, this is what I call breadcrumbs now, or clicking on hyperlinks where you hear something, you're like, if you don't know what it is, you're like, Wait, what is that? And why is she so excited? About it? And so you can, like, do some further research. But HSA stands for health savings account, and it's very popular in the fire community or just in if you are in the personal finance world, to capitalize and leverage it as a very powerful investing tool. And so I will link the episode that we specifically had on it in the show notes for HSA, so people can kind of learn more about that. But it's a very powerful not just for your health and saving for health expenses, but also a powerful retirement and investing account. So Esther, you are listening to the podcast, or you're in doing your research, finding out about all these things and applying them. Love to know, because I think most people do want to know when we especially hear lawyers. I think that like when people hear, Oh, lawyer, even though you have a lot of debt, that means probably making a lot of money. So doing some of this stuff is easier for you, especially you mentioned husband and you had homes, it seems. So it's kind of like, All right, so it seems like also income wise, and correct me, if I'm wrong, you might have been also in a strong footing to start your journey or to move forward. Can you talk a little bit about

Esther Hyun 11:53

that? Oh, yeah. I mean, I was privileged enough to my parents actually helped pay for my undergraduate degree. And so the only debt I have is from going to law school. Yes, being a lawyer, you have a higher income than most people, and so a lot of things were going well for me, but at the same time, there's so many people with high incomes that just waste it away and don't save anything. Right? The more money you make, the more problems because you buy the nice luxury cars or the bigger house, and that's one of the debates that I've been having with my husband, is because we have two young children, we live in a smaller home, and it's like, do we upgrade? Do we really want to take on the additional debt? Is it worth it to us to you know, do that? Are we doing it for the right reasons? Is it because society says you need this big house with a picket fence and a backyard, which, by the way, the first home I bought had no grass in the backyard on purpose, because I was like, I don't want to do any kind of maintenance. I don't want to cut grass, and so the backyard of the home that I purchased, the previous owner had put, like, brick and all this, like nice, like landscaping without any grass. So I was so happy. But I think that's just like an everyday struggle that we still have right now as a couple, is like, what do we want to put our resource towards? How aggressive do we want to be? Right? Like when we didn't have children, it's easy to save a huge chunk of what we are making, but now that we have children, there's daycare expenses, all these other activities that the children do. And when you're a parent, you want to give everything to your child that you didn't have, right? And so you're fighting this urge of wanting to spend more. And yeah, it's just something I'm still struggling with, and I think it evolves and changes as you grow as a person and As years pass, because you know what, where you are at right now is not the same as where you were at before and where you'll be going. And so I think it's good to try to be self aware about what's important to you and also what's important to your spouse or your partner that you're living with, because it's not just about what you want, but it's what you want for the whole family and for each other.

Jamila Souffrant 14:22

Yeah, do you guys live in a high cost severia place or low cost? Yes,

Esther Hyun 14:26

so we live in the greater Seattle area, so definitely high cost. And obviously homes are expensive here, and so that's the other thing is, is it worth it to us to not only leave our mortgage, which is, the interest rates are amazing, right? I think a lot of people that purchase a few years ago are in the same boat, which is, is it worth it to have the higher interest rate for the extra room or two and so and then, in addition, everything else calls it. A lot too, right? Eating out costs a lot, and I would say that's probably one of our biggest expenses, is eating out. My children are only four and two, and they eat like adults, which is insane. Like my grocery bills are insane. You would think having children, you know, they could share one meal now that that doesn't happen in my in my family, yeah,

Jamila Souffrant 15:24

well, so I want to go back to talk a bit about just the trade offs, right? Like the trade offs that we're thinking about, because I'm in the same situation, I feel like I've been talking about getting a car, and my husband too, right? Like he, I've said this a lot of times on the podcast, he'd like a nicer car. I mean, I'd like a nicer car, but it's not really a priority. And we're at that stage where it's kind of like, do we get one? And I'm like, but we don't have a car note. We don't have to worry about that. Why put, like, an additional bill in figuring all that out right now? And so that trade off comes into play. Or the kids are ages, I feel like we're definitely spending a lot more now, as they get older, on food, going out to eat, and it's it's that, how much more do I want to save and come back versus give my kids these experiences that change, and, who knows, maybe a few years from now, while becoming or faced with different choices, right as they get older and have different desires or needs. But I think this is something a lot of people on the journey go through, and even though we might not have the what is the correct answer? I think it's important to give ourselves Grace within those times that we are thinking about it. So it's not like, oh, you should feel bad because you want a new house or a new car, but you just thinking about the trade offs is actually a big deal versus, you know what? I'm just going to fall into my whims and just do whatever without thinking about the consequences or the trade offs that come with that decision.

Esther Hyun 16:46

Yeah, what I realized is financial independence is a lot like try to lose weight, right? Theoretically, it's very simple. You eat less, burn more calories, you spend less, you earn more money. But there's so much that goes into money and losing weight, right? It's emotional. You think it's logical, but it's more than that. There's so many aspects of your life that affect your decisions when it comes to money and your health. And for me, one of the things I've realized is you need to find what works best for you. And I think that's why there's so many health gurus out there about the latest diet and things like that, is because people are trying to find the solution for them. And I think that's the same thing with financial health, is that you need to find what works for you. Some people it's having very clear cut rules about like, do not spend on this, do not spend on that, have a budget. Some people go very extreme, and they're frugal and cut out everything, right? They make their own bread at home, which no judgment. I make my own sourdough at home. And there's others who do the other end of that spectrum, right? They just spend as much as they make, maybe sometimes more, because they're like you only live once. You know, I want to enjoy the money that I'm making. And so I think to everyone, it's each their own, and they have to find what they're comfortable with. Maybe in the long term, they may regret it, maybe they won't, but I'm all about just finding what's best for you, and it's not going to be the same for everyone, even though theoretically, we all know how to save money and things like that, there's just so many aspects of our life that contribute to that decision, and so I don't think there's really a wrong way or a right way to financial independence when

Jamila Souffrant 18:51

it came to you not being aware of all like the tools you had at your disposal to help you reach financial independence. So you know, to income, household, a good income. What about like the other like, expenses? What were there things that you did on the expense side of the equation that helped you? Like, did you have to cut things out, or was it really more of just like, reorganizing your finances?

Esther Hyun 19:13

I always think we could be better, right? We could always be improving. I love reading self help books because I always think, as a person, you're always changing. You're evolving, and it's good to reevaluate what's working and not working. Sure, I could definitely reduce spending on eating out, for example. Like, one of the things for me is that if I want to go to a nice restaurant with my family, like, I'm not going to look at a budget. I'm not going to look at the prices and worry about that like I'm going to go and enjoy the food, enjoy my time with my family. And so for me, it wasn't really changing anything drastically. When I learned about the financial independence movement, it felt drastic. Because I was like opening my mind to this future reality of maybe not working till 65 and that was huge for me. But at the same time, I didn't make drastic changes. I wasn't changing my spending as much I think I could have, and I think I probably would have reached financial independence a lot sooner, but for me, it's balance, and that's what I value more, and that's something that I really appreciated after my cancer diagnosis, is that I'm so glad for me I didn't go the extreme frugality route, right? Like I could have eaten at home every single day, been miserable, like doing dishes is the worst. Like, I love cooking, but I just hate after the cooking. And so I made small tweaks to improve myself. And then after my cancer diagnosis, I learned a little bit more about things I could have done differently, like life insurance. For example, at my work, there was a certain amount that I could have increased my limit to without like a medical examination. And I found out after the fact that that guarantee only happens when you first joined the company. So even though it was guaranteed a certain amount. If I go back now and I try to get that same amount, I still have to do a medical examination, so, like, something like that, I would not have known unless I went through the experience I went through. And yes, I could have done that differently, but at the same time, is it like a make or break mistake? No, like, it would have been nice to have done that and had that additional security for my family, but I've made up for it in other ways, which is, we save a lot and invest a lot, so if something huge happens, we're going to be okay, because my husband and I, we're set for retirement, and everything we do right now is just to accelerate that date. And obviously, being a cancer survivor, I have no clue if I'm going to even reach 65 so I think about that when I make my financial decisions too. Is that I have this potential expiration date I don't know if I'll actually expire at that time or not. And I think that's the same with everyone. We all don't know when our time is going to be up. And so we live with that truth, and we make decisions every day. We either just assume that we'll live till 65 and beyond, or we live our life a little differently and say, Hey, I may not live to 65 so maybe I don't want to be frugal, maybe I want to spend a little bit more. And I think you just need to be careful. Is that if you are too optimistic or too pessimistic, you're you might end up not being happy with the results the actual reality of your life, right? Because if you are too scared and you save too much and don't live your life, I think you'll regret it. But if you are too optimistic, that I can just, you know, if I lose my job, I'll get another job again. You know I could keep working till I'm 65 you don't know what's going to happen to your health. One thing I always mention to my friends is, after my cancer diagnosis, I found out that 40.5% of Americans will get cancer in their lifetime. That is a crazy amount. That means either you or someone you know will get cancer, and we all live our life thinking, Oh, this will never happen to me, like, I'll never fall sick or get ill or get cancer. And so the more you learn, the more you kind of help educate your decisions and how you live your life. Let's

Jamila Souffrant 23:59

talk a little bit about when you found out you had cancer, and then that process, because I think that we are very enlightening for people to hear. Yeah,

Esther Hyun 24:08

for me, I was 36 when I was diagnosed with colorectal cancer, and it was a complete shock, because not only were the symptoms not to the level that I thought a potential cancer patient should have. A lot of my symptoms were, you know, I had constipation, diarrhea. Once a while, I had some bleeding in my stool. But a lot of these were kind of explained away by myself and my doctors, because I was pregnant, like I mentioned twice, actually. And during those times, which is crazy, I most likely had the cancer growing inside me. So the bleeding was attributed to hemorrhoids, right? Because all women, you know, usually get hemorrhoids when they're pregnant, and so it's like, oh, that's fine. That's normal. I even mentioned it to my doctors, and they were like. Yeah, that's fine. The diarrhea, constipation, I always thought I was lactose intolerant, and so I was attributed to eating cheeses and ice creams, and I definitely took, like, lactate pills and things like that, because I love cheese and ice cream, and I will not give that up. But eventually got to a point where I was losing a lot of weight. I lost a significant amount of weight after my second well, actually both my first and second child, it was close to 2030, pounds within a six week period. The second time, I thought it was normal because it had happened with my first child. But then I just kept losing it, and my appetite went down. And so I finally went and, you know, went to go see a doctor, and they were like, Oh, it's fine. You're you're breastfeeding, so that's probably why you're losing all this weight. So surrounding my the lead up to my diagnosis, like both myself and my doctors, we were minimizing the symptoms. I think also the media does a horrible job of making it seem like you need to be deathly ill to be diagnosed with cancer. And so that's one of the things I wanted to share, is that no, unfortunately, a lot of cancers, included colorectal cancer, you're going to have no symptoms until it's too late. And so when I found out, I was in shock. You know, when you become a parent, you want to protect your child and your children, and you want the best for them, and the last thing you think about is whether you'll even be alive to raise them, whether you'll be the cause of potentially trauma in their life, and so it was definitely a really emotional time for me and my family and my husband, but one thing I am so grateful for, and the reason why I reached out to you is because being on this financial journey allowed me to not worry about the financial burden of having a sudden illness and being diagnosed with cancer, because unfortunately in America, I think over 90% of us have health insurance, and yet you see gofundmes of individuals raising funds for medical expenses. And I just didn't understand that until I was diagnosed, and then I found out, oh, people aren't saving for Worst case scenario, right? They're not saving for potentially spending the full out of pocket maximum. And for those that do save the full out of pocket maximum. Like myself, I didn't expect that I would have a surprise bill from an out of network provider that would be beyond my out of pocket maximum. And fortunately, I was responsible and had extra money, but I'm going through this right now where I went to go see my oncologist, she had me go do a blood work within the same building, the blood we were sent to a lab. I finally get a bill. This was back in December or November when this happened. I got a bill like earlier this year, after the fact, it was for almost seven, $8,000 and I was like, what's going on? I reached my out of pocket maximum last year, because I was diagnosed last year just the CTS and MRIs, before I even started chemotherapy, reached my out of pocket maximum, because that stuff is expensive. And so I was like, I really reached my out of pocket maximum, what's going on? And I find out the lab that they had sent my blood work to was not in network, and it's like, well, my oncologist is that in network, the place I got my blood drawn is in network, but you send it somewhere out of network, and how would I have known beforehand, right? And so it's things like that you get this unexpected bill, and so even if you are responsible, things don't go perfectly, like what happened to me, unfortunately. Well, with

Jamila Souffrant 29:09

that, now I'm just curious, did you have to pay that? Was there a way to fight that? Or that was a bill

Esther Hyun 29:13

I'm actually in the midst of that. So this is to be continued for the end of the story on that, but I have reached out to the cancer center that I was getting treatment at. I've reached out to the lab company as well. So I'm working on a solution. Unfortunately, this is where having too much of an income isn't helpful, right? Because there are different financial assistance and things like that that are available to certain individuals at a certain income level, but yeah, for me, I need to work through it and figure it out. There's also a no surprise bill act that's been passed and supposed to help more in emergency situations. Situations. And so this is one of the, I think, one of the situation where it just kind of wasn't covered by that.

Jamila Souffrant 30:09

Hey, journeyers, if you are loving this podcast, then you will love my book, Your journey to financial freedom, a step by step guide to achieving wealth and happiness. I wrote this book for you. This book is for you if you want a clear and enjoyable path to having more money, options and a rich life, this book is for you if you hate your commute and the fact that you need to seek approval or permission from a boss. I hated that when I worked. This book is for you. If you weren't born into wealth, you didn't marry rich or win the lottery, but you still want freedom. This book is for you. If you're at a crossroads, a major decision or event is imminent, maybe a career change, marriage, starting a family, pressures are reaching a tipping point, and the discomfort and the desire for more can no longer be ignored. And this book is for you. If you find yourself zoned out at meetings, looking out the window or daydreaming about the life you truly want. So go pick up your journey to financial freedom.com. So I can show you how to map out how to get from where you are today to where you ultimately want to be and enjoy the journey while you're on the path, head over to your journey to financialfreedom.com to see where you can pick the book up. It's available on Amazon, bookshop.org, Barnes and Noble, your local bookstore everywhere, go to your journey to financialfreedom.com to get the book now, you said you were diagnosed last year. Yes. And what about work in terms of your job, or, you know, are you still working? Did it give you allowance for having time off? What was that process like? Because I know for a lot of people, it's Yeah, even if you are investing or saving some money, it's that loss of income that really takes a toll on your finances.

Esther Hyun 32:01

Yeah, I was really lucky to have had employers that were very accommodating, so I ended up actually working throughout my treatment. So I went through about four months of chemotherapy, and then I did chemo radiation. I had surgery in November to remove my tumor, and then I had something called an eliotomy, so it was temporary, and then I had that reverse so another procedure recently, and except for the surgeries, I actually worked through everything, because I just wasn't sure how is it going to react to the treatment? Because I think most people assume when you have chemotherapy, you're going to lose all your hair, you're going to be frail and sick. And fortunately, there's been a lot of advancement in medicine where there's ways to prevent or mitigate symptoms through medicine, through hydration, through eating. For example, you know, I lost a lot of weight when I was going through treatment because I just had no appetite, and that was one of the side effects. And so I just combated that by eating as frequently as I could, even though I didn't feel like it. And as a big foodie, that was really, really sad for me, because I love food, and the fact that I couldn't eat anything that I enjoyed because I just mentally couldn't, but I just forced myself to. And I think most people are shocked when they hear that I work through all of this, because they're like, you know, don't you want to take time for yourself and things like that? And I actually really love what I do. And I think if I was with an employer that I just did not like, or I was in a career that I was not happy with, I think I would have taken the time off, and I would have been able to Washington state also has a paid leave for medical and family related, uh, expenses. And so I could have taken the leave, but I personally chose not to, because I thought, one, I don't know how I'm going to react to the treatment. And two, what am I going to do with my time? Like I want to keep myself busy, because I don't want cancer to be taking something else away from me, right? And so I actually kept working. I was able to i i was sick here and there, but I just worked with my doctors to help with the symptoms. And you're not sick every single day either it's kind of a cycle where you go in and then you just start not feeling well for a few days, and then you feel good again, and then the whole process starts all over again. And in addition to working, I didn't compromise, like what I did outside of work, either, like my son. And started T ball for the first time, and I ended up being his coach, and some of his games and practices, I had my chemo pump connected to my port and in affinity pack, and I was like, running around on the field, and no one knew that I was, like, in the middle of getting chemo and coaching all these like four and five year olds on the field. So a couple

Jamila Souffrant 35:25

of things you said there that, you know, you enjoyed your job. So some people listening to this would be like, in their current situation and in their world, they would be like, I would be out, you know, especially if I could financially withstand loss of income or just a break I'm gonna go live my life. Because you're faced now with this reality of your mortality, right? Like, here's something that's seemingly or external affecting what my life may look like, and it just goes to show you that it's going to be it's different for everyone. We don't know what that's going to look like. Everyone's journey is different. But I think it's inspiring to hear that in your situation, you you were able to you found power, right? Like you kind of took your power back, it seems like, from cancer to, like, live life and to continue on your own terms. And the other thing you said that I think is very interesting is that, just like the fact that so many of us will be impacted by cancer. I know years before, like decades earlier, when I heard about cancer, it was like a family of a friend of a family friend, or some like someone else. And now, like, I know a lot of people personally, like first cousins and aunts and people really close to me that have either passed away or currently have it. And so I know you've probably done a lot of research. You're on the board. I think I read in your bio for cancer, what are some of the things, especially for women, because usually the colon cancer I've heard about is usually men. So like anything to help us in terms of our own health, be proactive to hopefully catch things like this earlier.

Esther Hyun 36:59

First of all, I want to say, I'm sorry that you know people who have been affected or passed away from cancer, and unfortunately, it's a reality for a lot of us. What I learned from this journey is that it's a lot like financial independence. You don't want to go extreme, right? You don't want to be too healthy or too junk foodie, you need to find a balance, because that will let you be consistent, because you can eat healthy maybe once or twice, but if you don't enjoy it, and you don't make fundamental changes in your life, you're not going to sustain that. And that's the same thing with your money is that you need to find what works best for you and that you'll continue to do to work towards your goal. And so I always say it's really about balance in order to have the best life possible. Because if you don't, if you only do it once or twice, it's not going to be helpful. Obviously, yes, you should eat healthy. You should eat your fruits and vegetables and try to eat less meat and things like that. But I think the biggest lesson I learned is you need to be able to sustain that, and so even if it's making one healthy meal right a day or reducing one meat dish with legumes, or, you know, vegetables, things like that, I think is helpful. Also at the end of the day, you could be the healthiest person. You could be a marathon runner. You could have been eating green kale smoothies every single day of your life with no sugar, nothing and still get cancer. Because cancer doesn't discriminate. No doctor can say with 100% certainty that if you do all of these things right, you will not get cancer. I have met some people who are angry because they're like I did everything right, and I still got cancer right? Because most people think you have to be living this horrible lifestyle, and then you get suddenly ill. Unfortunately, you can't control these things. What your body does. Some people are more susceptible to certain illnesses, and maybe they don't realize that. Like after I got my diagnosis, I found out all the females in my dad's side of the family have all now had cancer. I was the last one to get cancer. I didn't I knew about one of my cousins who had cancer. She had breast cancer, but I didn't know about my other cousin, my grandparents, also on my dad's side, had cancer. So all of us had different types of cancers, and so medically, my doctor would not have recommend anything differently, except for, you know, one or two of the cancer that occurred, they could have been like, Oh, more screening. Earlier. Yeah, and that's one of the things I highly recommend for all of us to live a healthy lifestyle, is to get those preventative screenings. There are certain ages that is recommended to get screening colorectal cancer, because it's rising in those under 50. They actually recently lowered the preventive screening age to 45 and so if you're 45 and older, please don't walk, run and go get your colonoscopy, because that is the gold standard to know if you have something going on with you. Also, if you don't know your family history, ask your parents, ask your cousins, because we don't know what we don't know. And one of the things I learned as well is that my dad had a lot of polyps when he had his colonoscopies. So all polyps don't always turn into cancer, but all colorectal cancer starts from a polyp, and so if you have a family that has, like, a history of polyps, it's a really good idea to just be a little high alert if you have any gastrointestinal symptoms. So like I mentioned, maybe constipation, diarrhea, loss of appetite, things like that. If you have any of those, and you have a family member who goes to a gastroenterologist frequently to get a colospi, you may want to be a little bit more cautious and maybe even go see a doctor and ask for one, even if you're not 45 that's the other thing is that I would have been too young for the preventive screening, and I wouldn't have been able to really prevent this, but for me, advocating for myself, because when I knew that something wasn't right, I pushed for answers. I didn't think it was going to lead me to cancer. I thought I was going to have maybe an IBS or IBD diagnosis. That's what I was expecting, and that's why I pushed for a colonoscopy. But I say we all have gut instincts, and sometimes we dismiss it or let others dismiss it, and so being confident in yourself, because unfortunately in our country, a lot of people hesitate to go see a doctor because of the cost. Like I mentioned, a lot of people don't have symptoms of cancer, and so they'll say, Oh, I feel fine. I don't need to go to my annual exam. I don't need to do this because I'm healthy. I do all this. And unfortunately, you don't know what's going side in your body unless you do those tests and scans and preventative screenings.

Jamila Souffrant 42:50

Yeah, and you know all of what we're doing when it comes to our finances and wanting to retire early or have the freedom and flexibility that we want. It's not going to matter much if we're not here to enjoy that. Now, of course, if we leave legacy behind and a foundation for our family and kids, that's one thing, and that's amazing. But for me, I love going to the gym, or I like the results of the gym, and I like I run, but I like the results of running so externally, you know, I take care of myself in terms of gym and physical activity, but I knew that this year I was like, you know, committed to making sure I'm I have that annual checkup, and that even now I'm like, Okay, let me just maybe it's something, you know, I should get. I didn't think about getting a colonoscopy earlier than I needed to, but maybe that's something that I can look into, or like, telling my husband again, Hey, did you make that appointment? So I think taking into account as much as we care about, like the physical things and the material things that we are searching for is that we have to take care of us from the inside out, and that's not always easy. I get it. I get that we are working, we have kids. You get busy and you know, you just like, I'll put it off. I'll do it another time. But I hope this conversation prompts you to take your just your health, if you can, especially you have the privilege of having insurance. I know not everyone does, and the society, especially the US, has a lot of reform that needs to be done so that people do have access and equal access and quality care. But if you do have the privilege of having insurance, like, take advantage of it to check yourself out and, you know, advocate for yourself. Yeah, even

Esther Hyun 44:33

if you don't have insurance, there's charity care. There's a lot of nonprofits out there to support people financially or provide some type of assistance, and so if you have any symptoms or any cause of concerns, it's easier said than done to say, Go get your screenings and be a little bit more cautious and get things checked out, especially when you're having financial problems or. Or debt, but tomorrow's not promised, and I wouldn't want anyone to have delayed treatment because they couldn't afford it. And that's what frustrates me about our medical care system in this country, is that there are so many people out there who are foregoing treatment and screenings because they just can't afford it. Since

Jamila Souffrant 45:23

you've now been in this world and researched more, is there anything from like a ground level? I know you mentioned a charity just now. Are there any other resources you can share for people or who need, who want more information, and anything else we can do from our perspectives? Yeah,

Esther Hyun 45:38

well, you can start with colonstars.org, I'm on the board, and there's a lot of resources there. There are a lot of different cancer organizations and nonprofits. You know, the American Cancer Society is one. There's a lot of statistics about the most common cancers. Unfortunately, there's an increase in early onset cancers in those that are under 50. So breast cancer, prostate cancer, colorectal cancer, it is the leading cause of cancer death in men right now, and it's the second for women. And so it is not only one of the top three most common cancers, not just in America, but globally. But it is the deadliest, because I think the stigma around it, you know, no one likes to talk about their poop and things like that. You know, when you're a parent and you have young children, you're obsessed about poop, right? You're always talking to your co parent about poop. You're talking to the doctor about poop. It's like, Why does it look like this? You know, all of that. And at some point, for some reason, we don't talk about a poop, and our poop gives a really big clue to how we're doing health wise. And

Jamila Souffrant 46:54

the other thing you had mentioned before we pressed record, which I thought was kind of think it's important to say again, like you mentioned Chadwick Boseman, and like when he was diagnosed and he passed away, of it, if you want to share kind of like, your perspective when you heard that and how, like that was different for you.

Esther Hyun 47:09

Yeah, when chasm and Bozeman passed away from colon cancer, I was going through some of my symptoms. I was having some constipation, some bleeding in the stool. And I remember hearing about a free stool test that you could receive. And I was like, you know, I'm hearing that more black Americans are getting this cancer, not Asian Americans or even women. And so I was like, I'm not going to take advantage of this, because I want someone who really needs it to utilize this benefit. And I didn't see anyone that looked like me with colorectal cancer, especially that's, you know, Asian American. I'm Korean, and even a young mom like I thought that this was more of a man thing. You know, you see the memes and stuff online about Dad spending too much time in the bathroom right now, I hear about that. I'm like, maybe he has colorectal cancer, or maybe as IBS, IBD. We shouldn't be joking about this, but I think that's one of the reasons why I reached out to you? Because no better time than now to reach out to you so that your listeners can know that this can happen to you, even if you live a really healthy lifestyle like I, I felt like I left a pretty healthy lifestyle. Yes, I could have, you know, not gone to McDonald's as much, but overall, I eat a variety of food, like I have a really good diet, like I get the probiotics and prebiotics, and through, through the foods that I eat and I exercise, like I didn't just sit in front of the TV day in and day out, just eating junk food. And so I and I think that's most of us, right. I think most of us do a pretty good job of balance, and you would never expect getting suddenly ill or getting cancer. And so yeah, when I heard about the statistic of 40.5% of us will get cancer, I was like, why are people not talking about this more? And I think if you knew that, you knew that you could potentially have this illness, I think you would lead your life a little differently. Maybe you would, you know, maybe not stress too much about certain things, or maybe be more proactive about certain aspects of your life and get your things together in order. I don't know, right? Everyone has different things they could work on, but I think we would all lead our lives a little differently if we just had some more awareness about the possibility of something huge like this happening in your life at your prime, right? I did. I thought maybe when I was old and great, maybe I'll get some kind of illness, like break my hip or something. I did not think I'd be going to the hospital for a 12 month period and beyond, because now I have to go and get blood work and scans for surveillance before all this, the only big, major health thing I had was removing my tonsils, and that was years ago. Well,

Jamila Souffrant 50:29

now that you were faced with this, I think also just talking about some tangential things still important that people can do is, like, really life insurance. And I know some people, you know, hesitate to do it, and maybe they don't think they have enough assets, but just putting that in place is very important, especially if you have a family, even if you don't, to help figure out, like, you know, what happens to your assets, or, you know, protecting or helping loved ones work through, like, the financial costs of what happens. And then, you know, I always say, like, the will and your estate plan, getting that together so people can understand, and there is a plan in place that happens if something does happen to you.

Esther Hyun 51:07

Yeah, I, even though I'm a lawyer, and I should know all this, I did not have a will or anything set up. I still don't, actually, I that's something in the process, because there's so much that you have to think through, right? It's like, if you pass away and your co parent passes away, who watches your children, it's such a big decision. And so I feel like sometimes you get this like paralysis on taking the step, because there's so many big questions that you have to ask yourself. And so it's almost a barrier. It's like, even though you want to do the right things, you're like, either scared to or you're just like, I don't have the answers. And I would encourage you, you know, don't do what I did, and just wait till you get a sudden illness or cancer to do something about it. Definitely reach out to help. There's so many great resources and lawyers and advisors out there that can help you work through those big questions. The other thing is, I actually did the math on life insurance, like term life insurance, and I was like, Okay, if I invested this much and I'm paying to our life insurance, and I died like, you know, X amount of years. How much would I have had if I had invested instead of getting this term life insurance? And usually you're not going to have that much money saved up from investing that even though you think, oh, it's not worth it, it's like, until you're actually financially independent, you're just hedging your bets, right? You're just making sure, like, until I reach to this financial security, I'll have this in place, and that's what we've done after the fact. Unfortunately, so I'm not able to get life insurance now, because if I went through a medical exam, I would be rejected, because now I'm a cancer survivor, so unfortunately, they don't have to give me life insurance. But my husband is perfectly healthy. Nothing's happened to him, so we went and did that immediately after my diagnosis, because that was one of the big things that I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, I should have done this, like, way before this happened, you know, I should know better. And it's just one of the things that you just don't get around to, because you assume that you're gonna live till at least 65 and work forever and be healthy, right? No one assumes the worst, and so, and that's kind of for me, when I feel like a lot of people think I'm pessimistic, I think I'm an optimistic realist. But, you know, no one's perfect, and that's why I want to share my story, is that even if you have all the information, and you know, logically, these are things that I should be doing, you don't always do it for whatever reason, and don't beat yourself over it like just do the best that you can moving forward. And that's what I've done, is that okay, there's these things, there's these priorities. Some are more of a prior than others, and it's just slowly getting through your list of things to do and hoping for the best. Yeah,

Jamila Souffrant 54:23

don't let shame. And what you should have did, like, continue to keep you stuck or not making improvements, like we all have that there is a long list of things that I can do right now that can save me some money, that can cancel some stuff. There's a long list, and I think we just need to kick in an account that we are human. I am human. You know, I think about sometimes, like I have like, I call it my emotional, like, mental load of my kids, which I love and enjoy them. But yes, it's important to maybe make these calls and do these things to help save this money, but I emotionally and mentally don't have the capacity something that I can do, but it's not something that. I'm able to do right now, and so if I let that kind of what I should be doing, or the shame of knowing better but not doing better, prevent me from doing other things in my life, then, you know, it creates this just cloud of shame that gives you negative self talk and just doesn't allow you to then come out of things and just so give yourself grace. You don't have to get it all perfectly, right. But hopefully this conversation will inspire you to start looking into things, start clicking those hyperlinks, as I say, or picking up the breadcrumbs to figure out what your life looks like and how to protect yourself. Now that you've experienced this, you're still experiencing it. What has changed about your financial independence goals and wants. So sometimes, you know, when I first started my journey, it was about speed and how quickly I can get to my financial independence number. And then life happens, and I'm like, okay, maybe I'll just take the more balanced, slower approach so that I can enjoy life for you going through your experiences now, have you changed your perspective on how you want to reach financial independence. Are you slowing down? Do you feel like you need to accelerate it more? What does that look like for you and your family?

Esther Hyun 56:07

Definitely, I'm trying to live in the present more and enjoy the day to day. I think going to what you mentioned about beating yourself over like small mistakes you've made two, three. You know, 10 years from now, that mistake is it really gonna be that big of a mistake most of the time, probably not, right? And so just realizing that right now, something might seem like a really big deal, but it may not be in the grand scheme of things, and so just realizing, like, what's important to you, having that self awareness, and that's something I'm still always working on. Right now, before my cancer diagnosis, I was like, I want to put as much money away and invest it as possible. I want to be retired like yesterday, right? And I want to do it faster, but at the same time, it's like, I don't want to sacrifice my time with my children, with my family and friends. One of the debates I have a lot of debates, with my husband, is about, you know, is it worth the extra income to get to a different job elsewhere, when there's this risk of not knowing what the culture is like, if it's going to be high stress, if it's you know, if you're even going to like the work. And so, yeah, it's everything's a give and take, right? If you give up something, you're taking on something else. And so at this point in my life, I would say I'm a big proponent of the slow Coast fire movement, because I feel like it's a happy medium, at least for me, because I've reached coast by I if I don't work, and if I don't invest anymore, I'm going to have more than enough at 65 the reality is for me, unfortunately, the survival rate for colorectal cancer is not very great for stage four. So five years from now is basically the timeline I have for myself is that, five years from now, if I do this, am I going to regret it? And so that's kind of unfortunately how I'm living my life. Because, like I said, I'm an optimistic realist, and so I look at the reality of the statistics, but I'm optimistic that things will work out. But just in case, will I do this this way or that way? And that's a question I'm always asking myself, and I think it's always evolving. And like I said earlier, it's just you gotta do what's best for you under your circumstances, like my life is very different from your life and your listeners lives, and so there's so many different components that contribute to the decisions we make. And so I think, like you said, give yourself grace to sometimes make mistakes. Most of the time, it's not going to be life altering mistakes, and there are solutions to address it right. You can fix it right? Like I said, I can't get life insurance, but my husband was able to, and so we addressed it. Give yourself grace, enjoy your life, because you never know. You might think it won't happen to you, but you just never know. And so if something does happen, I hope you don't regret the way you lived your life. Oh,

Jamila Souffrant 59:44

beautiful. Thank you so much, Esther for coming on and sharing your story. I really hope it helps fellow journeyers who are on their path to just the life that they can live and enjoy, not just for the future of this financial independence dream that we want to. Of our options, but like today, I think you know the life that we want, like we want to live, it now, not putting our joy on hold, even if we may not be in the financial spot that we want. How do we how do we have joy today, no matter how much is in our bank account, even if we are in debt, or when things do feel financially bleak, like, how can you create a life that you love, hopefully surrounded by people who love you, and in an environment where you feel safe. So I just want to thank you again for coming on the show. I don't know if, like you have a public persona or what your plans are, but if you want to share anything, or people can reach out, or you're just a page that you can and we can look it in show notes, but if not, that's totally fine too.

Esther Hyun 1:00:42

Yeah, right now I'm on Instagram and Tiktok as parenting with cancer, I started initially to keep my friends and family in the loop about my cancer journey, but now I just want to spread spread awareness about colorectal cancer and early onset cancer. So if you want to reach out and connect with me, I am there. Maybe I'll get a website up. One day, we'll see and thank you so much for having me. I've really this is such an amazing experience to talk with you after listening to you all these years. So thank you very much. Oh, I also wanted to share one story I forgot to mention this. The reason why I reached out to you is that I was actually at the hospital after I got my tumor removed, and I was talking to one of my night nurses, and somehow it came to talking about how she was investing in real estate, and how she was an immigrant. And we started talking about investing, because I am such a nerd about this, like my husband, not so much. And so when I meet someone in real life, I can talk about, like, index funds and all this stuff, I will completely take advantage. So I was talking to my night nurse about investing, and I was telling her about how what I shared with you, which is I thought investing was like gambling. And she was like, Yeah, me too. Like, I don't know, like, what stocks and pick or anything, so I haven't invested really, in anything. And my brother told me to, you know, invest in, like, real estate and all of this, because, you know, you get the income from renting it out. But yeah, I shared her, like, my experience, and I was like, yeah, like, I didn't know anything about this either. Like, I was pretty much in my late 20s, early 30s, when I started investing. I feel so late to the game. But I'm sure there's other people in that are late in life and they feel the same way. But yeah, I told her, I taught her about index funds. I actually was like, You need to listen to journey to launch. And then I was like, I want to thank you. You know, like I went through this, like, traumatic experience. I'm still going through it. I don't know how long I have left to live, and I want to thank people who have helped me and shaped me to be the person I am. And even though, like, I've never talked to you or met you before, today, I feel like I know you. I know seems a little cliche. I feel like a lot of people say that when they meet celebrities and things like that, but yeah, I was like, You know what? Like, I don't really do this, but I reached out to you because I was like, I have to tell her what an impact you had in my life. And I'm sure there's so many listeners who are in the same situation me, where they were like, I have no clue what I'm doing, and then they came across your podcast, or learned about the fire movement, and now they're better off than they were before, and my life's not perfect. My finances could be better, right? I wish I was financially independent right now, like if I could just not invest and just splurge all the time, that would be great, but, oh my god, like I can only imagine the medical debt and financial strain I would have been in if I wasn't doing all this. Because now I have this extra cushion, right? If I do have this unexpected, you know, out of network bill, I can just, you know, maybe contribute less to my form, 1k or not, contribute to my children's college fund, things like that, and I can make adjustments. I have this safety net that I probably wouldn't have had if I didn't come across your podcast and just all this information that you share with everyone. So I really, really hope that you understand how thankful I am for what you do, especially since you don't really get to talk with your listeners day to day and see what impact you do. And so that's what prompted me to. To message you, and I totally didn't expect to be on your podcast at all. This is such a surreal, like I said, such a full circle moment for me, because, yeah, I wasn't really investing or doing anything big when I started, and then you literally changed my financial health in trajectory, right? I just can't imagine where I would be right now if I was going through cancer and worrying about, can I pay all these medical bills and things like that? And it makes me so sad knowing that there's so many people that are going through that stress of not only dealing with cancer but worrying about, like, am I going to be able to stay in my home or pay for groceries? Like that is the last thing someone fighting for their life should be worrying about. But yeah, I just, I really, truly want to say thank you. I can only imagine, like, what my life would have been like right now without what you've taught me and all your listeners. So I don't know if I shared, but the survival rate for stage four cancer, the rate is, I think, 14% so 14% of people who get stage four cancer are alive in five years of their diagnosis. So it's like, when you get a wake up call like that about your mortality, it's just you also, like, have this urgency to, like, do what's important for you. Like, now why put it off, like, a day or two when you can do it right now? Wow.

Jamila Souffrant 1:06:46

Well, I just want to thank you, so I take the all that in, I accept it, and it fuels me to, you know, keep going. And you know, that's really when I think about the podcast and now the book is that I hope that it's an entry point and catalyst for people to change their lives, you know, because that's what happened to me. Like I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be able to sit and talk to you if I didn't one day stumble upon the fire movement and getting immersed in the podcast and the books and into this world. And so I know how different someone's life can be if they make changes. And it's not like, just about like finances, like, I'm not driven by like the finances, like, doing a budget doesn't like excite me. I'm not one of those personal finance people. It's just it's a tool so that I can live the life that I really want to live. And so I hope that this will help other people to discover what that looks like and be their entry point. So send this if you're listening. Send this episode the book your journey to financial freedom to someone if it's changing your life, hopefully you can help change someone else's life. Esther, thank you so much again for chatting. This was it's so enlightening. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:52

Thank you.

Jamila Souffrant 1:07:52

Don't forget. You can get the episode show notes for this episode by going to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening to this, and you can still grab your jumpstart guide for free to help you on your journey to financial freedom by going to journey to launch.com/jumpstart

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