Vanessa Van Edwards, a best-selling author and behavioral researcher on professional communication and leadership, joins the Journey To Launch podcast to discuss science-based communication insights and give actionable social skills tips to advance your career, relationships, and overall life.
We also chat about navigating stereotyping and biases , the importance of making definitive decisions about personal connections, leveraging cues to shape perception, and more.
More than 50 million people have seen Vanessa on YouTube and in her viral TED Talk. She has been featured in Entrepreneur, CNN, CBS, and more. Her book, “Captivate: The Science of Succeeding With People,” has been translated into 17+ languages and her latest book, “Cues: Master The Secret Language of Charismatic Communication,” was an instant best seller.
In this episode you’ll also learn more about:
- Actionable posture tips and desk setups to optimize how others perceive you
- How to recognize if you have weaker people skills and what you can do to improve them
- Why we should go into interactions wondering how we can like the other person more
- The Halo Effect, the definition of a “sticky person,” why charisma is just as important as a lucrative idea + more
Check out the video to this episode on YouTube below or by clicking here.I'm listening to episode 356 of the Journey to Launch Podcast, Cultivating Influence, Mastering Networking + Leveraging People Skills To Improve Our Financial Lives With Vanessa Van Edwards Click To Tweet
- Instagram: @Journeytolaunch
- Twitter: @JourneyToLaunch
- Facebook: @Journey To Launch
- Join the Private Facebook Group
- Join the Waitlist for My FI Course
- Get The Free Jumpstart Guide
- Get The Budget Bootcamp for FREE
Vanessa Van Edwards 0:02
I try to like everyone, but there are definitely people where I'm like, wow, I've tried. I have asked good questions. I have tried to find similarities, and we're just like radically different core values different. Great. Now I know, I now know that is not my person. Actually what research finds is ambivalence in relationship is more draining than toxic.
T-minus 10 seconds. Welcome to the Journey To Launch podcast with your host, Jamila Souffrant. As a money expert who walks her talk, she helps brave Journeyers like you get out of debt, save, invest, and build real wealth. Join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
If you want the episode show notes for this episode, go to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening to this episode. In the show notes, you'll get the transcribed version of the conversation, the links that we mentioned and so much more. Also, whether you are in OG journey or are brand new to the podcast, I've created a free jumpstart guide to help you on your financial freedom journey. It includes the top episodes so listen to stages to go through to reach financial freedom, resources and so much more. You can go to journey to launch that comm slash jumpstart to get your guide right now. Okay, let's hop into the episode.
Jamila Souffrant 1:41
Hey journeyers Welcome to the journey to launch Podcast. I'm really excited to speak to today's guest Vanessa Van Edwards. She is a multi Time Best Selling Author and renowned behavioral researcher on professional communication and leadership. More than 50 million people have seen Vanessa on YouTube and in her viral TED talk. She has been featured in numerous publications including entrepreneur, CNN, CBS and more. Her book Captivate has been translated into over 17 languages. Her latest book cues master the secret language of charismatic communication was an instant best seller. Also fun fact, Vanessa and I shared the fin con stage a couple of years ago, when I was able to speak at fin con as a big idea, speaker to conference for personal finance, people and Vanessa spoke and captivated the audience. I mean, that's what she does. And so I'm excited to have you on the show, Vanessa? So welcome.
Vanessa Van Edwards 2:40
Oh, it's so good to be back together. Again. I cannot wait to help and talk and dive deep.
Jamila Souffrant 2:46
Yeah. So first of all, if you're watching this on YouTube, the video version of the podcast, you'll see Vanessa has a beautiful background, she's standing up. And I was just like, I need to have my studio skills because I can definitely see why this allows you the setup, to be able to express yourself on camera and to to people who are watching.
Vanessa Van Edwards 3:07
You know, it's so funny. So I study cues, right? Like, what are the signals that we're sending. And what we don't realize is our ornaments, you know, our background, our setup, even the ratio of how much of our body we show it, it changes when people perceive us. And so a couple of fun tips, if you're thinking about your setup is one, you should measure the distance between your nose and your camera. And it should be at least or between 18 inches and three feet away. That is the sweet spot for socializing. So try to make sure that it's between 18 to three feet. So my nose if you're measured, it's almost exactly in that little zone, the preferred view is top of the waist to top of the head. So if you can show a little bit of your waist, it just helps someone feel like they are getting to know your emotional state and your gestures. And if you can stand it's better for vocal power. I struggle a lot with vocal power. And so standing really helps me not go into my bad vocal patterns. So there you go.
Jamila Souffrant 4:06
Oh my gosh. So tips that I love. And it's funny. I have a vocal coach for speaking. And he says the same thing he says, and I recorded my audio book from my book that's coming out in a couple of months. But I sat the whole time and he was like, You should stand and I was just like, well, the studio set up to sit so I did sit. But I love that you just brought that up because I'm like, Oh, he really knows what he's talking about. But that's why he's always telling me to stand in interviews.
Vanessa Van Edwards 4:31
Totally. Actually, when I was filming my audiobook, they had it all set up for sitting. And I begged I literally begged I was like please, please can I stand please, please please and they figured it out. And so I was so tired by the end of my audiobook but hopefully if you listen to it, it was worth it.
Jamila Souffrant 4:47
That is so funny. All right. Well now if I find get that second chance at a book I'll I'll do it.
Vanessa Van Edwards 4:53
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Jamila Souffrant 4:55
Okay, so you know, this podcast and my book and what we try to help people do here is reach financial independence, financial freedom. So yes, money is a big part of what we talk about. But I really love talking about the 10, gentle things that impact our journey and our money. And a big part of that is how people perceive you how you network, your, to me, your net worth is your net worth in some areas in some aspects. And what I've found during my journey so far, even with corporate America, and now being an entrepreneur, is that the reason I'm able to get this far and I've gotten this far apart from the work I put in is, it's because of the relationships I've built veloped and how people perceive me, whether that's my listeners and audience who take to me in some way and want to be on this journey with me or colleagues, and people I interview where, you know, it becomes like this environment of support and helping me reach my goals, which financially help. So I want to hear from you, Vanessa, more about that, because I feel that so many people are missing that link with their financial journey, and we need to talk about anymore.
Vanessa Van Edwards 6:04
Okay, I don't even think it's tangential, I think it is directly related. And the research actually proves this. The research is quite clear that in everything from negotiations, so negotiating your salary, negotiating as an entrepreneur, raising capital, that people invest in people as much as they do ideas. And so we actually studied this, where I was looking at Shark Tank in a shark tank is this show where entrepreneurs go pitch their idea, and they try to get investment, it is very clear that sharks invest in people as much as ideas. And so if you are talking about any financial discussion, whether that's negotiations getting buy in getting partners, even if you're selling yourself or your service, you're talking to clients or customers, people are looking at you as much as we're looking at there at the actual thing is called the halo effect. The halo effect is a very well known research effect that if you are confident, competent, and warm, and it really is those three traits, confident, competent, and warm. It makes everything you touch look more competent, competent, and warm. So the way that I like to think about it's I go back to my old days, remember the popular kids in high school, I wasn't one of them. Okay, I'm a recovering awkward person. So I watched the popular kids a lot. And one thing I noticed is that whatever they touched was cool. So like, when the popular girl wore a blue scrunchie on her wrist, everyone else wanted to wear a blue scrunchie on their wrist that scrunchie was not cool. And then one day because she wanted it was cool. We're still doing that, as much as we don't like to admit it, that we're looking at what the cool kids are wearing, are doing or touching or smelling or acting like Right. And that is because we want to catch we want to catch it. So as an entrepreneur, or a high achiever, or a corporate professional, wherever you are, your people skills are like lubricant, for whatever financial success you want. That could be negotiating a deal, getting a partner, asking for a raise, we need to make convince people that we are confident, competent and warm, that we are the perfect financial investment for them. Or else it's almost impossible for them to invest in us.
Jamila Souffrant 8:12
Someone may be listening and saying to themselves, well, you know, I don't know that. I don't know or think I have a problem with connecting with people. And they might not realize that's a blind spot. So how would want to recognize that maybe that's something that's been holding them back. And then if you do recognize it about yourself, what are some things in terms of being awkward or not being able to connect with decision makers and stakeholders or people around you? How does one begin to make those changes?
Vanessa Van Edwards 8:37
So one way to sort of self assess and like a gentle way, right? Like, as a recovering awkward person, I tend to social overthink, like I have the opposite problem where I think everyone hates me all the time. And so I have that problem. If you're on the other side, I and you were like I'm good. Like a viewer like me, I am first of all very jealous, very jealous of that competence. And I love it. So I don't want to tear down that confidence. But I would invite just a gentle thinking assessment of are you and your ideas sticky. So people who are really successful with people and I only know this because as I begin to work on my awkwardness, my confidence, all of a sudden, I became stickier, and I was like, Oh, this is what that feels like. Which is if you're with someone, are they saying things to you like I always love talking to you. After you hang out with someone to someone say I was just thinking about you. When you're on social media, our friends or colleagues or coworkers sending you links being like this made me think of you. That's a sort of stickiness that gives you such an advantage. I did not have it for a long time. I am only in my recent years cultivating it. Of when someone is sticky. It means that people like spending time with you. They feel that you make them better. I think that that's like the really important one is really cap debating charismatic people, they are not the people going in impressing everyone being the funniest being the life of the show. No, in fact, and there's a myth about how extroverts are the only charismatic people. I think that ambiverts introverts can be far more charismatic, because they're really good listeners. And so it's that people are with you, and they're like, I feel better with this person. I feel smarter, I feel more likeable. I feel like I can be my authentic and true self. So that's the question I would invite you to ask is, do you think that people feel better around you? Are they actually leaving better than when they first came? And second, are people saying those sticky phrases to you?
Jamila Souffrant 10:40
I love love that. And also, what if you self assess? And you're like, wow, actually, I don't think people feel that way. What do you do?
Vanessa Van Edwards 10:49
Okay, okay, this is it. This is my favorite place is your like, I think I could be stickier. Right? Like, that's a good place to be like, you're great. Like, we know that. So the question is, okay, so how can we like, show that better? So here is a radically different way of thinking about likeability. You know, I love how to win friends and influence people. It's a classic book, but I have sort of a, an elevated take on it, which is, I think, instead of going into interactions, thinking, how can I be more likeable? How can I be more impressive, which is what we tend to think, especially if we're talking about relationships, and finances, right? Like, you're going into an investor to try to get investment, or you're going into your boss to ask for a raise, or you're talking to a customer to close a deal. Those are interactions that are actually sales based, right? Financially based. We want to go in trying to be impressive, right? We want to go in and trying to sell our ideas ourselves. It's really hard to be charismatic in that way, right? Like, we as humans, we sniff it out. We don't like that inauthenticity. So instead, I want you to throw all that out the window. And I want to share a study that changed my life. This is a study that looked at highly likeable people. In fact, it looked at the original like, well, people, it looked the most popular kids in high schools. So what they did very clever, is they analyzed 1000s of high school students across a couple of different schools. And they wanted to look for popularity patterns. Were certain kids more popular, and why was there any predictor and they had all these hypotheses? So for example, do you have a I guess, listeners and I want to ask you, what do you think made? Was there a pattern of the most popular kids across high schools in grades? Any guesses?
Jamila Souffrant 12:29
They played sports, or were a part of a team?
Vanessa Van Edwards 12:32
Okay, so that was the number one hypothesis is they were the most athletic?
Jamila Souffrant 12:35
Vanessa Van Edwards 12:36
Or they were like the best athlete. GPA was on the one like, maybe they were the smartest, tall wasn't? Right. So there's all these are like, most attractive, right? Like that was some type of. So there were popular kids who were athletic, there were popular kids who were pretty, they weren't Punkbuster smart. But that was not actually a predictor of popularity, there was only one single predictor that every popular kid across all the grades and across all the schools had, which is the most popular kids had the longest list of people that they liked. So one of the questions they asked was, how many people do you like in your school? And the most popular kids had the longest list, which meant they were not going around every day thinking? How can I be more impressive? How can I win more friends? They were going around thinking, how can I like more people? How can I like you? And how can I like you? And how can I like you? That is a very different way of going interactions. And it changed my life because it took all of the pressure off of me trying to show something, do something be something, it was like, How can I like this person more. And so if you're in that place, hopefully everyone listening is in some somewhere this place. In every interaction, whether that's a sales interaction, or friendship or dating, I want you to be asking yourself, How can I like this person more? Which means we ask very different questions. If we're looking for that kind of answer, right? We're looking for more meaty moments, like how can we share things? We're asking deeper questions, because we're looking for reasons to like, we're also assuming the best of people we tend to as humans. This is one of my negativity biases, which is that when I'm with someone and they behave badly, I define them as bad. We don't do that to ourselves. If we have a bad day, we think this is a bad day. And so thinking how can I like this person more also disengages our negativity bias a little bit to think, oh, okay, they had a bad day, we'll try again. So it's a very different way of looking at people but it's what I try to keep front of mind.
Jamila Souffrant 14:37
I love that this study you said debunks a myth that I had was just was that sometimes you assume that the popular kids like they don't like a lot of people, they're exclusive. That was a something I've viewed or I thought that was how it worked. That's from the outside looking in. So that's interesting.
Vanessa Van Edwards 14:54
Okay. It's so it's so instinctive because I think that as humans, we tend to withhold our liking because we're afraid of being rejected. So we see like the too cool. I'm not going to try kids as like, wow, they're really not trying, right? Like they're so cool. They don't even need my likes. And I think that there are kids who are intimidating, right? There are maybe people so people who are intimidating, who don't try and maybe that that triggers a sense of uneasiness. But that is not likability. Right? Like that is intimidation. That is, maybe we try harder with them, which maybe can trick us into thinking they're popular, but they're not. And those are not my people, by the way, like, this is also a really good moment to say like, just because you want to figure out how you can like more people does not mean you should like everyone, right? I try to like everyone, but there are definitely people where I'm like, wow, I've tried, I have asked good questions. I have tried to find similarities, and we are just like radically different core values different. Great. Now I know, I now know, that is not my person. Actually, what research finds is ambivalence in relationship is more draining than toxic. What that means the actual tip police officers, and they studied police officers relationships in precincts. And they found that police officers who had more ambivalent relationships had more workplace dissatisfaction had lower happiness and more stress, ambivalent relationships, especially in professional settings look like this, that she liked me? Do I like him? Was that a? Was that a neg? That they just kind of insult me? Are they supporting me? Did he just roll his eyes? Do I want to go to lunch with this person? Like that ambivalence of like, wondering, are they really supporting you was that a secret insult was that passive aggressive? It is so draining for our social battery. And so it's better to be like that is not my person. So police officers who said that is not my person. We have very different values. I can work with them. But they are not my person. They had way higher work happiness, even if they knew they were working with difficult people, because they were able to set boundaries. No, I'm not going to go to lunch with that person. Right? Like, I'm not going to have a lot of chitchat with that person. We're going to get our work done, then we're going to move on.
Jamila Souffrant 17:23
Right, right. I mean, and again, that can apply to every work environment. I talked about this when I used to work in corporate America and think about walking into the workplace, and how if I thought about if I thought everyone was an idiot, or I came in with an attitude, and that person might not like, really, I don't get along with them. But if I came in there in that way, and treated them that way, everything would then start to rotate around that and the negativity would just happen, versus how many people were it's like, yes, you have the right to feel the way you feel within the workplace and with difficult people. But is there a way to switch it and use it into your use it to your benefit? Like you said, it's not you're not focusing on things that are not working, or the people that are not good, you focus on the people you do like and what is good.
Vanessa Van Edwards 18:10
So I think it's, it's clarifying, to know who your people are and who you're going to invest time into. And so yes, I want you to like as many people as possible. And I want you to always be searching for reasons to like, but also when you've searched and searched and searched, and they're not your person, know that they're going to drain your social battery faster than anything else. Like I'm an ambivert, I think most people are actually ambivert it they're in between introvert and extrovert. So ambiverts can dial up and extraversion when they need to, but they have to have recharge time. So ambiverts, especially, we have to be so careful, because we can dial up, right? Like, we can make it work with certain people. But those people aren't going to train us so fast.
Jamila Souffrant 18:51
Let's talk a little bit about biases. And so a lot of what we're talking about is how we want to present to others. And I would like definitely like to get more into details about what that actually looks like for someone like the cues and the actions you take. But when you're trying to impact or influence or connect with someone else, then that's how the person perceives you. And sometimes their unknown biases, their their internal, conscious or unconscious will impact how they see you. So what are your thoughts? Or what has the research shown on? You know, I can't change maybe the color of my skin or being a woman and some people might view that a certain way and I can't prevent that. Right. But how then do you see that in the work that you've done in terms of statistics for people who are navigating that and feel like, you know, maybe in certain situations? It's not a positive? Yes.
Vanessa Van Edwards 19:41
Okay. So, the research that I have looked at on this is called the stereotype content model. So if you want to dig into the research, I highly recommend it's very academic, but it's great reading. Here's the summary of it and here's exactly what it says, which is yes, people are stereotyping you. And yes, people have bias sees, and those biases are going to change how you come across to them. They've even identified exactly what in the way that we look or the way that we are, can change people's ratings of you. So in the stereotype content model, this is research, Dr. Susan Fiske, and I just love, love, love her work, is she has found that 82% of our judgments of people are based on warmth and competence, that when we first meet someone, we're trying to judge very quickly. Are you warm, friendly, likable, trustworthy? Are you competent, capable, powerful, smart. Okay. Those are the two frameworks that whenever we're in a meeting, a video call a phone call an email, we're trying to judge on LinkedIn profile, people are trying to figure out, are you warm? Are you competent? So in my teaching, I'm constantly teaching people what are the cues of warmth and competence, right? There are 97 cues. How can you add those warmth and competence cues to your profile to your meeting, to your emails, here's the issue is when you walk into the room, or someone sees your photo, your gender, your race, your culture, can change right off the baseline. How someone perceives you on the warmth and competence model. Let's take men and women for example. Women are seen by default, as higher in warmth. Men, by default are seen as higher incompetence. It doesn't matter what their actual warmth and competence are. Just someone knowing that I'm a woman is going to increase one of the competence ratings. So number one is I think it's really important to know what these biases are. Right? It's really good to know, like, I know that as a woman, who's on the younger side, in my industry. So in my industry, I'm doing a lot of speaking on stages. I'm young by two decades, right? Even though I'm 38. Most speakers are in their 50s. Okay, so this is really good to note, young people are also rated as lower incompetence, not necessarily hired warmth, but lower incompetence. This is purely based on my people think wisdom is acquired by age, by that changes at a certain age. So in 70s, and 80s, it goes down and competence, right? So okay, so I know that I have some things working against me just by existing, just by my age and my gender. Knowing that, though, is very helpful. I don't like it, I don't like it. And it means I'm gonna have to work harder to try to overcome other people's biases, which is extremely unfair. But at least I know it, right. And we can try to work to change it over time. Okay, so I know that I'm probably fighting, my default is higher and warmth, and probably lower incompetence. I named my company based on that bias. The name of my company is science of people that has a high competence, name. Science is a high competence word. People is generic, right? So when I'm introducing someone says Besant, Edwards, founder of science of people, I am working to add those competence cues right off the bat so people can hear okay, science, she's coming to talk to us about research and science. My introduction, I lower my warmth cues, and increase my competence cues to show people No, I have high high competence as well. Do I like that I had to do that. No, but I would rather be in control of it. And so I think that what's really essential is knowing what biases are working for you and against you. And that's in the research, they're very, they've actually studied these, which is extremely helpful. And then deciding, okay, either I want to counteract it, or I don't, you don't have to write. You don't have to change people's opinions if you don't want to. So if you want to show up as you and be like people can either decide based on my actual ideas, if I'm competent, great. So that that you can make that choice based on having the cues at your disposal to say I'm going to add more warmth or more competence, or I'm not.
Jamila Souffrant 23:45
So let's get into some specific movie cues that you can help people use to whether that I'm trying to think of the best regard maybe whether it's in a corporate setting, or I love that you just said even just on a profile on online, because that's how a lot of us interact and see people nowadays to
Vanessa Van Edwards 24:01
let's do verbal, right? So there's so there's four channels of cues, there's verbal, that's the words we speak, as well as the words that are emails, chats, profiles, email signatures, nonverbal, that's our posture, our facial expressions, our gestures, our movement in space, our vocal power, which we talked about, at the very beginning, right, the volume, pace, Cadence, tone, the quality of our words, our accent, not the actual words, the words we use, we use words we use. The word is how we say our words. And lastly, our ornaments. The colors we wear, the way we wear our hair, what's behind us in a background, the setup. Those are four channels, that gives us a lot of opportunity, right? I like starting with word words, because it's we're almost always using our words. And nowadays, a lot of our first impression is happening digitally in an email or LinkedIn profile. So words, this is the best and most powerful way to think about this. You can split words up into two buckets, warmth, competence. warm words literally trigger feelings of warmth. Their words like collaborate best together, both happy. Wow, yay, fab work. They are exclamation points. They are emojis. Warmth, right? They literally trigger feelings of camaraderie and warmth. Competent words trigger feelings of wanting to get it done. They're words that are motivation based their words like power through, brainstorm, efficient agenda, task deadline, right? productive. Those are all high competence words, in your communications, all of them, profiles, emails, you should have a balance of both. If we hit that balance of both perfect warmth and competence, we come across as highly warm and highly competent. So in an email, for example, if you have more than three exclamation points and more than two emojis, you're probably tipping into too high of warmth. Now, high warmth can be great if you're in a collaborative setting, if you're talking to your girlfriends, you're with your kids, yes, we want a lot of warmth, right? Like, that's good, you want him into it. But if you're emailing someone where you want to be taken seriously, you're trying to pitch an idea, you're looking for money, we have to have competence. And so that balance of taking away some of the warmth cues and adding in some of the competence cues. That's what we're constantly trying to do as humans, subconsciously, I'm trying to bring that into the conscious realm. We're always doing this right. Like, you know, if you send an email with too many exclamation points, they're like, it sounds like I'm yelling at them. But we instinctively know this. And so I think we can actually consciously play with these so that in these modes, email profiles, it's actually reflecting our natural warmth and competence.
Jamila Souffrant 26:40
And how would you say, if you feel like you've not only maybe made the bad first impression or impressions in general, and you realize, okay, I can I want to turn this around? Is there a way to change people's perceptions if they had that first meeting, or been around you for a while, but you are now making an effort to show up in a different way.
Vanessa Van Edwards 26:59
First impressions are long lasting, but they're not forever. And so it is absolutely possible to change people's impression of you, if you've really made a bad impression, I actually recommend an impression reset. So like, let's say it's with your boss, and like, it's just been like, like bad or it's with an investor that you've like, had bad relationships with. I highly recommend, like literally hitting a reset button, having lunch during a meeting and being like, look, I would love to have like a fresh start with you. I've been investing a lot in myself, I'm learning a lot. I'm adding new skills 2024, I'm going to have a completely different approach to my relationships in my work. And I'm wondering if you could help me with that reset. When you say things like that it it does help people go, Ah, okay, let's get it all out. Let's figure it out. And I think the 24 is like a perfect kind of way to do that. And so those resets, they really work.
Jamila Souffrant 27:48
I love that advice. Okay, Vanessa, please tell everyone where they can find out more about the wonderful work you do your book, and how to follow you.
Vanessa Van Edwards 27:56
Thank you. So queues is where I list all 97 of the keys I mentioned. It's a fun read. I use political examples, celebrity examples, lots of pop culture examples. I also read the audio book. And if you just want some free tips and my free tutorials, I do free workshops, four times a year and a video every week. So if you just want free tips. My YouTube channel is science of people. And I would love to help.
Jamila Souffrant 28:20
Thank you so much, Vanessa, this is wonderful.
Vanessa Van Edwards 28:22
Thank you so much for having me.
Don't forget, you can get the episode show notes for this episode by going to journey to launch.com. Or click the description of wherever you're listening to this. And you can still grab your jumpstart guide for free to help you on your journey to financial freedom by going to journey to launch.com/jumpstart.
If you want to support me and the podcast and love the free content and information that you get here, here are four ways that you can support me in the show. One, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen, whether that's Apple podcasts, that purple app on your phone, your Android device, YouTube, Spotify, wherever it is that you happen to listen, just subscribe so you're not missing an episode. And if you're happening to listen to this and Apple podcasts, rate review and subscribe there. I appreciate and read every single review. Number two follow me on my social media accounts. I'm at journey to launch on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And I love love love interacting with journeys. They're three support and check out the sponsors of this show. If you hear something that interests you, sponsors are the main ways we keep the podcast lights on here. So show them some love for supporting your girl for and last but not least, share this episode this podcast with a friend or family member or co worker so that we can spread the message of Journey to launch. Alright, that's it until next week, keep on journeying journeyers
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Sign up to receive email updates
Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.