Nedra Tawwab 0:02
I think no is a complete sentence. And I believe there are times when we need to give certain people an explanation, particularly those people who aren't going to push back who have our best interests at heart, just really want some more information out. It needs to be a complete sentence to the person who's gonna try to wear you down, right? Like, please make no a complete sentence don't get the one more thing. But for some people, it makes sense to say no, and this is why
T-minus 10 seconds. Welcome to the journey to launch podcast with your host jameelah. So frogs as a money expert who rocks her talk, she helps brave juniors like you get out of debt, save, invest and build real Whoa. Join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom. Four, three, two, one.
Jamila Souffrant 1:04
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Jamila Souffrant 2:17
If you want the episode show notes for this episode, go to journey to launch.com or click the description of wherever you're listening to this episode. In the show notes. You'll get the transcribed version of the conversation, the links that we mentioned and so much more. Also, whether you are an OG journeyer, or brand new to the podcast, I've created a free jumpstart guide to help you on your financial freedom journey. It includes the top episodes, so listen to stages to go through to reach financial freedom, resources and so much more. You can go to journey to launch that comm slash jumpstart to get your guide right now. Okay, let's hop into the episode.
Jamila Souffrant 2:59
Hey journeyers I'm really excited to be speaking to this week's guest. Her name is Nidra Glover Tao Webb, she's a licensed therapist, a New York Times bestselling author, and a sought after relationship expert. She's practice relationship therapy for 12 years, she has her own group therapy, practice her book, set boundaries and find peace. That's what's made it to the New York Times bestsellers list. That's where I first heard about you naturalists is from that book, and then from all your work online. And I just love how the conversation of boundaries is more in the forefront. Because while we spoke before this recording, I press record on this. This is a financial podcast, but there's so much more that goes into being having a healthy financial life. Like you know, that's to me, like the outcome that we want good money values and having money in the bank and making a good income. But I think a lot of that stems from like within, in our relationships with ourselves and others. And you talk a lot about that in your work. So I'm really excited to have you on the podcast to help. Walk us through talk us through why that's important and how we can create more boundaries in our lives. So welcome to the podcast.
Nedra Tawwab 4:10
Thank you. Thank you for having me here.
Jamila Souffrant 4:12
Yeah. So before we do get into the discussion on boundaries, and how we can create more of those in our life, I would love to talk more about your career and how you got to where you are today. Because in my opinion, you know, we talked about on this podcast and in my work, living a life that you love doing work where it doesn't feel like work, you know, it's work that is your calling. And you seem to be doing that. And I'd love to know how you went from where you began, like, Did you always know you wanted to be a writer to have such a public platform? How did you evolve into the person that we see today?
Nedra Tawwab 4:48
I did not know that I wanted to have a public platform. As a matter of fact, I did not really use social media. So it is shocking to know most people who know me that I'm using so Social media and I still really don't use it in the way that other people use it. Like, I don't follow any friends and family I, I am using it professionally, which is something I can commit to. But the personal ways in which we use it, I'm still not there yet. So for me, I didn't want to write something I didn't know what I wanted to write, because I wasn't quite sure that I wanted to be a therapist. When I was a kid. There was no social media. So there was no dream of being this, you know, social media influencer, because there was no social media. So I talked a lot, I always get in trouble for talking and listening and curating conversation in the classroom. And I remember my teachers would like, open up and share. And I'd be like, did you know this about Mr. So and so. So I've always had this natural energy around talking to people and listening. I did not know that that could be a career for me, but it's certainly something that I love. I love asking thought provoking questions and helping people dig deeper. I really like deep conversations. The fluff to me is like, why are we talking about that you have a bigger issue going on. So I really like a deep connection with people. So I started college and I wasn't quite sure that I wanted to be a therapist. So I got an undergrad degree in like sociology and Africana Studies. And I went to grad school for social work, I had a life changing internship as a therapist, it was my third internship, actually, it wasn't even my first or second, it was my third internship where I really got to practice in the role of a therapist. And actually, this is my final internship. I'm so happy I discovered this. But in the moment of being a therapist is when I discovered I wanted to be a therapist. I was like, Oh, this is it. Because before then I thought, like, I want to do policy change. I want to, you know, help kids and families like all of these things. But when I actually practice, like, wow, okay, be a therapist. I was like, Oh, this is it. This is what all of the conversation curation, reading all those self help books, really enjoying working with people has amounted to like it is this job, I knew it with the very first client that I ever saw that this is the work that I wanted to do forever and ever and ever. And I shock some people because I still see clients, I love it. I mean, I really like sitting with people, noticing their growth patterns, offering them some guidance when appropriate, but really helping them become more of who they feel they're meant to be. It is a wonderful job for me to have. And for
Jamila Souffrant 8:07
you. So was money at the forefront of your decision. And I'm asking that because I remember when I was in college, you know, I didn't know what I really wanted to be I enjoyed speaking to, but I was always geared more to, well, what's going to make me money because I wanted to earn money or be a millionaire back in the day that was like, I want to be a millionaire. And so I did go to school for business. But I wonder for you at the moment when you were thinking about this, like you seem to have really followed your passion. But didn't money play a part in? How much can I make in this career? Or were you not even thinking that you were just following what naturally felt good for you?
Nedra Tawwab 8:40
A little bit of both. But money is relative in the career of social work. I think 50,000 is the rich life of a social worker, right? Maybe 30 isn't so, you know, I was chasing some money, but definitely not millionaire status. worker. I remember my first job in this field that I make 26 that I was $26,000.03 weeks later, I got a job offer where I made 32,000 So I quit that job was like, oh, no, I'm gonna make way more money at this other job. And so my lifestyle was really conducive to the 32. And in that job, I think I got a few raises. They have bonuses. So you know, I thought I was rolling in dough as a social worker. I'm like, you know, I'm racking up here. I'm above 40. Here, you know, that's a good life for social worker. I don't think many people get into social work with the spirit of I'm going to be rich. I do think that with therapy, there is a possibility to make, you know some more some money, but I don't think many of us in this field are making six figures or seven figures. yours with only providing social work services or therapy, you certainly have to have your hands and another pot, you might need to be a social worker and have a landscaping business to be well.
Jamila Souffrant 10:15
Yeah, well, and I can speak tonight to tell all my mom's business because she does listen to the podcast. But I do know that when she worked at I believe it was a private or government social work services place like when she switched to the school system, it provided her a better pathway to earning a lot more money. Yes, yeah. So there are some opportunities. But I know that's not like for everyone. And the question I have for you is, where were you living in that point, because I know like being a social worker making only 30 40,000 in New York, which is where my mom like started out, and she she'd started out way back in the day. So she probably started out less is different from if you live in a low cost of area place. And I'm making that amount.
Nedra Tawwab 10:56
Yes, absolutely. I was living in Detroit, this was the 2000 recession. So things were cheap. You know, you could buy a house, I think I bought a house and my mortgage was $600. So, you know, life was good. Like, you know, this, this 32 is taking me far. Now, mortgages are $2,000. But at that time, it was very doable and feasible. Plus, I was just out of college. So I had low bills. Anyway, I think before I bought the house, I was in an apartment. That was for 50 a month. So yeah, 32 was excellent income. I think, unfortunately, in some in many states that, you know, 32 is still what they're paying, and it does not match the cost of living I happen to be, you know, in a city and in a time period where that amount of money could go a long way. So I think I felt Rich, I think I you know, in some ways, I remember being in college and being the typical broke college student and saying, Man, if I could make $1,000 a month, I
Jamila Souffrant 12:06
felt like a lot. Yeah, in college. Felt like a lot. Yeah, so Okay, so you spend some time so you graduate, what did you do after you graduated? Because I want to kind of just walk us to where you are today. Because I find it just fascinating that even though you didn't intend to be where you are, like, there's a big part of entrepreneurship is a part of like what you're doing now? How did you go from, you know, your standard job. And you can explain what that was to this creative part that you created for yourself.
Nedra Tawwab 12:36
So I have always been the sort of person who worked multiple jobs, because I realized that one would not give me what I want it. So I started as a juvenile probation officer, and then I moved to a wraparound service. And while I was doing that, I did some therapy services with children and parents who were in the foster care system. I did that for a while. And then I moved to Charlotte, North Carolina, and I had trouble finding a full time job. And that's when the entrepreneurship really began, I started contracting with three or four agencies to make what I wanted my pay to be. So I will contract to provide therapy services. After a few years of doing that, I decided to open my own practice. And for a while I was a solo therapist in my practice. And then when I became a mother, I said, Oh, my gosh, I cannot work this hard. And I said, I need to add more people. So I developed a group practice. And now I have a group counseling practice in Charlotte. And it is, you know, is really helpful. So I'm not having to see, you know, 30 to 40 clients and that sort of thing. So I get to relax some. And then also, as you stated, the authorship sort of came from becoming more present on Instagram. I started using Instagram, because so much so many of my clients would come in and they're just on their phones, and you see them swiping up and I'm like, What are they doing? Oh, they're Instagramming. And they will talk about it. People talk about social media in therapy, right? Like, my friend did this, or I felt left out of this so and so unfollowed me, blah, blah, you know, all of these things. And I'm like, how do we get people to come to therapy, and I said, I'm gonna, I'm going to try this. I'm going to use social media. And so I just started, you know, putting content out there just like quotes and a little bit of what I'm doing now, but, you know, just quotes and listicles and these sorts of things. And it started to catch on and I talked a lot about boundaries, which I think people weren't used to hearing about. And they were like, Oh my gosh, like I've never heard this Bow boundaries, unlike really, and just other stuff, you know, stuff that people talk about in therapy. And in 2019, I was approached by a publisher, they say, Hey, have you thought about writing a book? I said, Actually, I have. Thank you. So I, you know, I started that process. So it was, you know, I feel like writing the book was me, unloading so much of the work that I talk about with with my clients, I don't talk about it strange. I don't say the word boundaries a lot. So when my clients say boundaries, I know they follow me on social media, or they've read my book. But most therapists are teaching their clients about boundaries. We're just not using the B word a lot, right? But we're showing people like, Okay, this happened to you, what would make you feel better in this situation? That is them, us helping them set boundaries, we just don't say boundaries. And so once I started to really name that for people, they were like, Oh, my gosh, I need to have healthier boundaries. It's like, yeah, you do. And that's what you know, that's what therapy can do for you. I've seen so many people over the years come in with issues of anxiety, depression, panic disorders, all sorts of stuff, as a result of being able to speak up for themselves being unable to advocate with their boss with their partner in the situation. So so much of my work has been that I would say, from the beginning, when I had that first client, it was really about boundaries. So yeah, I just felt like the book was like, Oh, this is a wonderful natural progression of things that I'm already talking about as a therapist.
Jamila Souffrant 16:46
And how long ago did you start that Instagram account? Because you have over a million like followers now, right?
Nedra Tawwab 16:52
I started in 2017. And I will say it picked up in 2019. And it grew very rapidly in 2019. So from January 2019, I think I have 2000 followers in January, by May, I had about 10,000. By July, I had 100,000 followers, I felt like Instagram changed my life in so many positive ways, that I am a huge proponent of social media. Yeah,
Jamila Souffrant 17:24
well, you know, that's so well, that's the thing, do you know, like, was there something going on, like in the climate like in the atmosphere that in what was getting popular for people that what you were talking about at that moment took off, and we're gonna get to the boundaries. I know people are like, alright, Jamila, like what, to me, honestly, because I have so many people who are entrepreneurs who have things they want to say, and they feel like people are not seeing it. And they want growth, they want visibility. And so I feel like this is kind of like an important part of the conversation, because it's fascinating that you were able to tap in and I don't know if it was just obviously, it's more than just luck or timing you had you had great content. But I'm wondering like, if you were able to kind of pinpoint why it took off the way it did back then.
Nedra Tawwab 18:03
I don't know for sure. But I think this is a part of it. When we think of therapists we think of this like buttoned up person sitting in a chair and nodding, we don't really have the opportunity. And some therapists are like that, right? That that is a true perspective. We don't have the opportunity to see people with braids with glasses and colorful shirts and, you know, rope chains. And you know, like, how I dress how I look. And I'm talking about these therapeutic concepts, and I'm talking about them in a very applicable real world way. I'm telling you that anxiety is the thing keeping you up at night is not like, oh, I have sleep issues. It's like, yeah, sometimes you do. Most often you have anxiety, you know, most most often the sleep issue is a mental health issue is not necessarily like you have a challenge with sleeping, it's what I see is I see a lot of mental health issues with, you know, so just being able to name that for people. It's like, Whoa, I never know, I never knew that. Yeah, because doctors don't say that. They may not say to you now, I have a relationship with a doctor here in Charlotte, who refers a ton of people to me with sleep issues. That's one doctor. Most people, you know, they're not getting the information in a way that they can say, Oh, wow, this is the thing I need to do. Oh, wow. I could just tell my parents, I don't want to go on vacation. Like we're not hearing that. And so for me to be able to say that on social media. It is. It is revolutionary. It's like wow, like I didn't know those things were possible because we don't get that directness all the time from therapists. Sometimes it is just them listening them, you know, what did you think about it? And sometimes, you know, I do that I do that in session. But there's a lot of times that things are happening that I do have some perspective about. And that's what I share on Instagram. I'm like, Now, these are the options the person had. I didn't say that. But I can certainly share that. You know, I may not share that with them, because my job is not to tell people what to do. But I do have some perspective on what I've seen work for other people. And that is the content that typically shows up on social media like, these are the things that could be helpful. Sometimes I am guiding people towards these things, and sometimes I'm letting them figure it out. But I certainly could share what I think and what I've seen be helpful for other people, what, you know, sort of conversations can can move the needle in your relationships, therapists see a lot of problems. And we also have a lot of perspective on the solution. So being able on social media to just give people solutions, they're like, oh, my gosh, I didn't even know like, yes, we see couples all the time. And I'm thinking like, these are conversations you should have before you were married, that's an Instagram post. All the conversations you should I see it every day. I see it every day. I'm like, Wow, you are you're arguing? Okay. Let me write down a list of things that people should just talk about prior to marriage.
Jamila Souffrant 21:32
Yeah, well, and that's the beauty of this. And I think for a lot of people who have careers or they're doing things, and maybe they might not like the structure of where they're working, but they have some sort of knowledge and experience that other people would want to know if they're able to put it in a way on social media on creating a podcast or writing a blog, like you have some valuable experiences and information that will help someone. And I just love that part of your story by just starting to put that out there that it lands you where you are now, you know, your author, you have a public platform, and I love that you said in the beginning, you don't even like use it like showing your private like, you know, life. It's more like the public, professional side of you. But it's still so popular. So there is a way to kind of be forward facing without having to bear it all and show it all either. And I love that part.
Nedra Tawwab 22:22
Social media with boundaries.
Jamila Souffrant 22:25
Nedra Tawwab 22:27
I love what you said about people. I think about so many things that we could share on on Instagram, like, I don't know how to change a tire, like what if some mechanic had like some stuff, you know, like a infographic where it's like, hey, if you've never changed a tire before, let me tell you three ways to get started. Like, to me that's like information that could really benefit your brand like, or, Hey, if you drop your iPhone in water, let me give you a few solutions on how to dry your phone out. Like there are so many ways I'm giving away content ideas, but I won't be creating that type of content. But we do have whatever our industry is, we do have so much professional insight information I love. You know, one thing I get a kick out of as a therapist is talking to people from different disciplines because I get to learn the interworking of how mortgage officers think about giving people alone how financial advisors, you know, like, like, that is so interesting, like your job, whatever your job is, I'm like so Okay, so you're a tech person. What changes are you seeing in your field right now? I love having those conversations, because I don't know. Like, I know, a lot of therapy stuff. I've had a lot of training, you know, but I don't know about these other things. So I think any opportunity we have to be of service and just give people information as simple as we think it is. Because some people don't give information because we think, Oh, it's so simple. You can teach people how to file a nails. You can teach people how to appropriately clip their nails, whatever your thing is, I promise there is someone out there who is interested in that.
Jamila Souffrant 24:31
Oh, yes. Now, boundaries. This idea of boundaries, like you said, like there it's it's other things that people maybe didn't have a word for or didn't know that it's called boundaries. But I'd love to get into what boundaries look like because I feel like you know, we have so many relationships in our lives. We have our romantic relationships are platonic work relationships, intergenerational, so if we have kids, you know, parents like family relationships, like there's so many relationships that we manage, and are truly believed that the wealth that We all want to have lists based on options and are tangible. I think the relationships we have helped to create those intangible kind of webs of wealth that we see like it becomes tangible. And if you have a lot of family or good relationships with people in your life that can help you with your kids, if you know you need help, and or who you can call on to help introduce you to someone or whatever that looks like, like that all builds like this life, and eventually can lead to tangible results with what we're doing. So I find people kind of skip that over when they're talking about money, because we just want to get to okay, how do you you know, earn more? How do you spend less or invest, and that's all great, but relationships are so key. So I want to get into how we can start having better relationships with ourselves and other people. And that seems like it all stems from boundaries.
Nedra Tawwab 25:52
That is true. I recently read it, Mike Tyson's autobiography, and I read The Millionaire Next Door. And if I had to combine the lessons from those books, it is really about not just our relationship to money, but how we can be financially drained by our relationships with other people. And we don't realize that those are like boundaries scenarios when you have someone who's working for you, but they're not really doing a job, or not doing their job to you know, your standard, or when you're paying bills for other people, or when you're taking care of an adult who is able bodied, like these sorts of things like those are boundary issues, which can lead to you having financial problems. And we don't think about that really long time. But
it is our boundaries with our sales that can protect us from having financial issues. Sometimes always think about something I heard from Ayala Van Zandt, where she talks about if you have a problem with money, you don't really have a problem, because the problem is you, you know, you have to figure out how to use the money, like I talked about making $34,000, my mortgage was $600. I didn't go out and you know, live above that, because I couldn't afford it. So how do we use those boundaries to really create the sort of relationships with finances, with people with systems that we want to have. And that can be really hard because we forget how powerful we are. And our ability to do that. A lot of us feel like stuff is just happening to us, we have no control, no management skills over what happens. But we are so powerful, and what we choose to do or choose not to do and many things are a choice. You know, answering your phone is a choice. You don't have to answer it doesn't matter who's calling it. So when you answer the founder, you say, oh my gosh, this person bothers me you chose to be bothered. That was the choice you could have also chose to not answer. Now, that is a tough choice. Now, choices are not easy. Now we all have choices. Our choices are not easy. And that is the piece that people have to really deal with, is this a choice I can live with? And some choices we can and some choices, we can't. But I think once you identify your values, you can more easily identify what your boundaries need to be.
Jamila Souffrant 28:34
So let's go deeper there in terms of like this, saying no, or rejecting, you know, like energy from people or not inviting people into your space. You know, I've heard the statement No, is a complete sentence. And you shouldn't have to say anything after that. But in real life, when it's happening, especially if the person asking or the person you need to deal with, is someone close to you, or you really admire or respect, it's hard to just say no. How do we begin to assert ourselves with the people in our lives? So friends, romantic partners, co workers, what does that start to look like?
Nedra Tawwab 29:06
I think no is a complete sentence. And I believe there are times when we need to give certain people a explanation, particularly those people who aren't going to push back who have our best interests at heart and just really want some more information out. It needs to be a complete sentence to the person who's gonna try to wear you down, right? Like, please make no a complete sentence. Don't give the one more thing. But for some people, it makes sense to say no, and this is why you know, I think about kids like they don't give them a little bit of information. It really helps them with their anxiety. I think about all of the things with kids that they don't know. I'm gonna say this childhood is a little bit traumatic. And here's why so much stuff is happening that you have no clue about. You're going over this person's house. You never been there before. You want a snack, you can't have one, you don't understand why like all of these scenarios, it could be good. Like, you know, you can't have a snack now, because you just had two other snacks. Let's eat a meal. And then if you're hungry after that, you can have a snack that even gives them the information to say, Hey, I've had two snacks this time, she's probably gonna say no, again, I need to eat first and then get the snack. So saying no, and given an explanation in that scenario, is actually pretty helpful. It gives them the understanding of like, oh, this is why no is being said now with kids, they're still gonna say but please, but please, but please. But at some point, they will start to understand like, she's gonna say no, until I eat some food. And then if I want ice cream after but I can't eat ice cream for dinner. Right? Right. With your partner, you may not want to say no as a complete sentence. I mean, what kind of relationships will we have? If it's just like, Hey, you want to go over my family's house? No. It's like, you know, no, I've had a long day. And I don't feel like peopling today. You know, is it possible for us to go over there Sunday instead of Wednesday, when I get off work? The explanation is helpful. If it is that person and you say no, and they try to figure out how to make it work that might need to be a complete sentence. And I would say those people where you say, No, I can't come to your party, why can't you come at four? It's like, No, I won't be there. No, I won't be there. That needs to be the complete sentence. It doesn't need to be you know, oh, I have these five, I might have to do that, too. Because they're going to try to talk you into a yes. So no, is a complete sentence. And sometimes we need to give some people an explanation, not all the time. And we really have to know the people in our lives. And who we can give an explanation to and who we need to reserve a complete sentence know
Jamila Souffrant 32:11
for. I love that distinction, because then it makes it easier when it's time to kind of put your foot down. Because we all have people in our lives who you want because you want the best for them. They want the best for you. And so to explain yourself is not conceding, you know, because they prove to you that it's not going to be an argument, right? Because like I've said no before to people and you know, you give a quality you give a why. And it's so like you said they're, they're giving you an excuse, on why they can make that work for you. And it's like, No, I already said no. So I love that explanation of it depends who's asking the question, and who you're dealing with? Because sometimes it is just No, and sometimes it's an explanation. Now what about dealing with family and cultures in which the expectation is giving more emotionally giving more financially? Like, that's the environment you were raised in. And now you're coming into yourself into this world where you know what you realize? And there's another way to be? How do you step outside of that you still want relationships with these people, you still love them. But you realize that it's toxic and or draining to you financially and emotionally and mentally? Yeah,
Nedra Tawwab 33:18
I grew up believing that codependency was love. Like, if you have something you give it to people, even if you don't have it. So I get that, like our families, they really have this opportunity within those 18 years to get to get us into this mentality of you help people no matter what. And sometimes that word is to your detriment. Like you are not in a place to help anyone. I was just reading, I read a lot. But I was reading Viola Davis's book, and she talked about going away to college and her little sister needing a place to stay and wanting to come live with her. And she's like, Hey, look, I'm in college in a dorm. Like, I can't, I can't invite people into this space. But when you come from a family where there is this constant, like no, you have to let people like, you know, no matter what's going on with you, I too was in college, when people would say like, you know, someone's soul needs a place to stay. That's tough. I am not a resource for them. This isn't I'm not a resource, and I get that that's going on. But it sounds like there are other people who can help them and it doesn't have to be me. I'm not the only person in the family I think about you know, a family being a collective of people and when someone needs help, collectively, we help them it's not just me, helping them it is okay. So you're gonna do this you're going to do that this is your day. This is what you sometimes my help might be the financial piece. Sometimes your help might be the in person piece sometimes. My help might be on Tuesday, maybe your help is on what? So how do we collectively support a person and stop trying to put that energy on one or two people, which is what I often see in families, it's like, you know, it's the go to people. And those people are stressed. And they feel very lonely, because guess what, they don't get any support from anyone. They're not getting any support. They're always supporting. So there needs to be some spreading around of helping people.
Jamila Souffrant 35:29
And it sounds like you have to advocate for yourself and speak up, though to the people like not just to the person asking the question, but to other people around you to say, hey, I need help here. Now, what if you get pushback from those other people in your your life, who are not going to get the help or support? Like, I'm thinking of family and or friends that have family members who are not stepping up, and it still falls on them? And they feel like they have to do everything?
Nedra Tawwab 35:53
Well, I have the spirit of a social worker. So I'm always thinking about resources, who can we call what city service? What county service what Craig's looks like this person would? Like, yeah, if this person has Medicare, these are the services, I don't have to take you to the doctor, because guess what Medicare does provide transportation, here's the number for you to call, you know, so I'm always thinking, like, let me and I'll text the person be like, hey, so have you called your insurance to ask about this? Or have you, you know, like, these are the other channels of support. So I get that this is something that I can do. But this isn't something I have to do. You know, so what other supports are available for your particular issue and is not always, you know, me doing it, I think about when my grandfather became older and unable to work, there were a lot of city services, he got a new roof, he got like a house a and this was all from like, calling these different places, like, Oh, he's a vet, he's this like, you know, figuring it out and not saying, you know, you need to buy the thing. There are services already set up. And sometimes we don't know that. But we can certainly we have the internet, you know, we could do a little bit of digging to figure out other resources for people.
Jamila Souffrant 37:18
And how do you create these boundaries with the people in your life without being isolated? Because I know, sometimes, and maybe I'm wrong from your peers, but your professional perspective, like it can swing too much to the like, the other way where you're saying no, or you're so guarded, because you you know, like, you just don't trust people and you don't want anyone to ask you anything. Like you started you're so self sufficient. So I can say and admit something for myself is that because I don't like necessarily being asked a lot of from people like I don't like people reaching out and kind of asking me for a lot. I don't then in turn really asked people for help myself, which sometimes I need the help. And I'm like, no, because you know, like, you can figure it out yourself. So at what point do we set boundaries that it's healthy enough to where we are advocating for ourselves? But is there a way where it falls too much over where you're actually hurting yourself in some ways because you look at it like you're putting such a wall up, that you're in a castle by yourself
Nedra Tawwab 38:16
you have to figure out who can be helpful for you which friends so you know, some relationships can be supportive in that way but maybe not all of them. So which of your friends can you have that sort of mutual support with which of your family members can you have that mutual support with I get not wanting to always be asked for things but it's sometimes a part of a relationship to have to consider and think about other people. Not everybody now there are some people who will 100% never do anything for you. Those might not be the people that you want to help all the time. But there are other people who you know at times they will you know, do some things for you when you have to figure out again you have to learn your people.
Jamila Souffrant 39:06
Yeah, and it just sounds like this awareness is like important like first it starts with the self awareness of how you're feeling but then awareness of the people around you to like not because you know there's just like this need for a lot of us to want to be liked and accepted socially and with our family and so saying that yes, or just doing things because we want to or even when it comes to money right like so when it comes to like now money like specific money boundaries like you know, whether it's fitting in with the crowd buying certain things saying yes to parties and or brunches when maybe you don't even want to be around those people. Maybe you do but you don't have the money like a lot of that also stems from not understanding like okay, what is the reason why I keep doing this thing that it's actually not helpful for me my finances my emotional health, like, what is that stemming from? So when it comes to now money like literally like, all right, I have income coming in. Have money going out? How do I protect that and put boundaries around that? What are some tips and tools people can implement to create healthy money boundaries,
Nedra Tawwab 40:08
when we are helping family members, one thing I have suggested is having a fund for that, you know, so how you pay your light bill, water bill mortgage, or whatever your bills are, maybe you put $300 Every month into my help people out fun, right. And once that 300 is gone, or maybe it accumulates, maybe you have a good month, and nobody asks, and you can, you can have that as a budgetary item, if that's something that you want to be for others, you want to be of service in the way of financial support. But it should be something that's not like, abrupt and you know, as disturbing your finances in that sort of way. I think what will help us most often with finances is financial education. I've heard tons of millionaires, not 1000, there's millionaires with hundreds of millions of dollars going broke, why they don't understand money, the money you have today is not that money you will have tomorrow, managing money requires a ton of planning. And not just for this year, when you have money, you have to plan for it for ever, you have to plan for long term care, you have to plan for your kids to go there are so many things that need to be planned for. But I think when we have, you know, a certain amount of money, we forget about that. I learned that the hard way, my first year as an entrepreneur and I was, you know, not paying myself as a W two employee, and you're getting like, you know, $7,000 a month and you're like, Oh, this is all mine. And then taxes come in, they like, Hey, you haven't paid any taxes all year, where's our 12,000 12,000? You know, you're like, Whoa, you know, and that gets higher, the more money you are, you know, once you get to 30,000 a month, yes, you got to pay 10,000. So if you're not thinking about these things, it doesn't mean that these things won't come up. So financial education is a really important thing to invest in to really understand how to use money to your benefit,
Jamila Souffrant 42:29
right. And a lot of people who listen to this show, they're on board with the idea of understanding and awareness of like, their money where it's going. And I love the idea that you just said about even just having a font or like a line item in your budget. For me like a budget. While it's not like the like the most glamorous thing that people like doing, especially if they're not used to it, some people love it. I like have people friends that it excites them everyday, they're doing their budget. And for some people, and for most people, it's just necessary because it creates boundaries, around your spending and your money, it allows you because of boundaries give you freedom. Because I sometimes think of this, like I want to free life like I don't really want to see anything on my calendar, I don't want anyone telling me what to do. And then sometimes with that comes this, you know, chaos, because there is no set limits or timeframes on doing things. And I realized when I do have them in app can be chaotic in that timeframe, and not feel out of place. And I feel like that with money for a lot of people that like that's the case. And so like budgeting, while maybe some people avoid it, it's like it will actually give you the freedom that you're looking for when it comes to your money because then you can spend within the bounce. Because there's limits and boundaries around what you you know, when a friend or says let's go you know, to brunch, if you have an eating out budget line item in your budget, you know how much you can spend within that you don't have to feel guilty. Now when you're out with your friend and paying that can I really afford this?
Nedra Tawwab 43:51
Absolutely. And I think is really important to the I think budgets are boundaries. And I think it is it is a freeing thing to have a budget. When you think about, you know, high earners, most of them, you know, have budgets because you want to be able to live forever. Even if you make $100 million a year, you can't spend 90 million that year. I meant you could but guess what, you probably end up with tax problems. So you do have to have some idea of this is what I can spend this month. So it's not like people escape a budget based on how much money they earn, you know, many businesses, they have a budget for quarter one, quarter two, and these are billion dollar businesses. They want to make sure that they're bringing in some profit. So they have to say, You know what? Supplies needs to be this amount. It's not that they don't have any money, but there still needs to be some boundaries around how much you're spending on stuff. And so many of us see that as like a restriction. When it's really it is a For a long term freedom, because if you can, you know, put yourself on a budget now, hopefully that pays off in the future and you're able to live a certain lifestyle still on a budget. The budget doesn't have to be low. I think when we hear budget, we think of like cheap. Your dining out budget could be $100, I don't know. But it needs to be budgeted is really based on what you earn, what your lifestyle is, doesn't mean that your dining out budget is $50. It's whatever you budget, it's just intentional. That's all that means it's an intentional way of using your money. Mm hmm.
Jamila Souffrant 45:41
Now I know you have a lot going on. Right? So you have you still have your practice. You said you still see clients, you are an author, writer. So you're working on that you're an entrepreneur, your mom, how are you managing all the things that you do? Like, what boundaries do you have in place, whether it's like with your time or money that's helping you create this life that you're living now,
Nedra Tawwab 46:07
I try to build in ease days, so days where I don't do anything, I like to go to the plant nursery, look around, see what new plants they have read some books, go to a new coffee shop, just nothing, all day. So I try to do that, you know, a few days a month. And really, throughout the day, I like to take some time during my work day to just say, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna read a little bit, or I'm gonna have a chat with a friend, I'm gonna go for a walk for lunch. So for me, I am building in self nurturing all day, throughout the day, just being very intentional about many of the things that I do, because I am doing a lot. So how do I do these things in a way where everything can kind of, you know, flow together and not be so chaotic for me?
Jamila Souffrant 46:57
And looking at the technical side of that, is it that the boundary is someone calls you when you're reading or when you're going for that walk? And you don't want to talk to them? It's kind of like, do not disturb or what does it look like? Technically, as you're living in the world, when you put those restrictions up for people?
Nedra Tawwab 47:13
Yeah, I have a you know, I have a few people I'll talk to like during my work day, but you know, like during the work day is very hard to work in the and focus on, you know, some family members problem or whatever, and then get back to work. It's like, I can't really handle those conversations, you know, during the workday, maybe on my drive home, maybe you know, the day after I work, but those aren't conversations that I can have. So I typically text people and say, Hey, I'm working, I'll call you. You know, tomorrow morning, I'll call you. I love a schedule call. I love them. Love a schedule call. Because I can prepare for it mentally. The abruptness of like I haven't is like Whoa, don't call me in a crisis. I want to be able to schedule your crisis. So that that really works for me. So a lot of times I'll tell people, you know, hey, I'll give you a call at 530. And I really do call most of the time where I'll text and say, Hey, got caught up with something. But being able to say like, to me, it's like the email, you know, the phone now. It's just like, oh, this person wants to talk. And so I want to talk to you as well, here is a good time for me to talk. This is not a good time. First off, I have a client and you know, maybe eight minutes. So your conversation I'm like, Okay, gotta go by. So, yeah, I have to, I have to think about that I'm in the middle of, you know, doing something. So I don't even have the time to give to the conversation. So it's really thinking about when will be a good time, because this is not it?
Jamila Souffrant 48:49
What if you don't want to talk to the person at all? What if like, you rather keep it to text? Like you actually, you know, so just be like, I'm not what they want to talk to you. Like, they're like, Hey, can you call me?
Nedra Tawwab 48:59
I say what's up? That's what? When people say call me, I'll be like, what's up? Tell me now. And a lot of times, people will say like, Hey, I just want to know, what was the name of the doctor you went to? Oh, here it is. Here it is. This is a doctor. You know, so I just want to know what's up and I get it. Sometimes people do want to hear your voice. But hey, we have so many ways to communicate with people. I have friends we basically pen pals, we just text in an email and that's all we got. But it's we still together.
Jamila Souffrant 49:39
Or I was just gonna say like voice notes. So like, I'm thinking of a particular text someone I have to get back to and I just want to be like, can we just like do voice notes back and forth? Yeah, yeah.
Nedra Tawwab 49:50
And I realize people are at different levels like I have some family members and who are like retired, right. So your level of availability is not my level of availability. So you're calling me like during judge Mathis hours and Mauri hours, I'm not available at those times. I didn't even know more. You had two shows a day. Somebody just told me that the other day, I say, Oh, wow, I really don't watch any daytime TV. But
Jamila Souffrant 50:19
I didn't know that either.
Nedra Tawwab 50:22
I didn't either. I say yeah. So that's not my level of availability. So I'm not able to do that. I'm still in my I'm not retired, I'm not in my freedom of just not doing that. And if I am, you know, sort of relaxing, it is super intentional, like, I need to relax, because I've been functioning very highly. So I need to have this reduction day. And that's the intention of this day. So still treat it like a workday for me.
Jamila Souffrant 50:51
Yeah. And I think to just the last thing on this before we go is just also don't feel guilty about it. Sometimes I feel like the guilt then forces you like you, you force yourself to do something you didn't want to do and the person's I've been forcing you, right, you just think I should do this, I should call them. And a lot of us are functioning at high levels with a lot of stress that we're not even aware of. I mean, we may not know why we don't want to do something. But it's like a gut feeling that we don't want to do it. And so I'm telling myself, as I'm telling everyone listening, it's okay. Even if there is no reason even if you are watching Maury, and you don't feel like talking to the person, it's okay. We have the right to like our own time and saying no, and not being available to everyone.
Nedra Tawwab 51:30
Yeah, this is how I know when people have boundary issues you ever go to, I don't know if you call it the show the movie theaters, I call it the movies. You go to the movies, and someone gets a call and they start talking on if I might yo you're watching a movie, like, you can't tell this person in this or you can't let that go to voicemail in the conference is never emergency is like regular conversation that's disturbing everyone else because this person refuses to just set the boundary of I am watching a movie. That is the boundary. And I will call you after my movie.
Jamila Souffrant 52:14
Right? Oh my gosh, Ninja up. First of all, I just want to thank you for coming on the journey to launch podcast. Like I said, I'm a big fan of your work. And it's so important that we are talking about this publicly. We're encouraging people to go to therapy, I'm in therapy. Like I just feel like this is work that people need to hear more of. So I want you to let everyone know where they can find out more about you. Tell them where they can pick up your book and find you on Instagram.
Nedra Tawwab 52:40
Yes, so my book set boundaries, find peace and I have a workbook the set boundaries workbook is available. Most places that books are so so Amazon target Barnes and Noble, please support independent retailers, particularly the ones in your city. And you can find me on Instagram at natural to wild or you can visit my website where I have some free worksheets, quizzes and tons of information about mental health and relationships.
Jamila Souffrant 53:14
Yes, by the way, I did take your quiz and it did say I had healthy boundaries. Sounds like okay, go me Look at me. So I'll put that all in the show notes everyone, where you can find out more about Netra thank you so much again.
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